Pest perspectives EP 34 - seirian sumner - Endless Forms: Why We Should Love Wasps - Pest Perspectives

Hello and welcome to Pest Perspectives episode 34.

This week we have something a little bit different.

We have Serene Serena Sumner. Get it?

Right on, Sarian. Right.

There we go. Sorry, Sarian, There we go.

The author of a great book called Endless Forms, The Secret

World of Wasps, and it's the really good one.

And I've just found out just before the show, you were the

voice. You were the voice actor on it.

I never actually noticed who, who, who read it out.

But yeah, you did a good job. You did.

Thank you. 16 hour book though it was.

I'm sure it was 16 hours on the audio book.

It was a whole week in a recording studio.

I was so fed up with the sound of my own voice by the end of

the week. Well you do, because also like

at that point you realise that what you hear when you're

speaking, you sound completely different than.

It's why a lot of people hate the sound of their own voice.

Yeah, I can't my audio book. That's fair, especially the week

you had. But no, it's you want to tell.

Tell people what you do now and what what you've done with all

your degrees and everything you've got to this point because

you're quite the WASP expert you are.

Well, I don't know about that. I mean all, all I will say is I,

I'll start off by saying it's a complete accident that I'm a

wasp expert. I never used to be especially

into insects, little old Wasps when I was a young person, but I

did, I did enjoy kind of, I was interested in animals, animal

behaviour. And I ended up going to study

zoology at UCL as undergraduates, mainly because I

was a big fan of David Attenborough and I like the cute

furry animals. Never imagined that I'd end up

studying these, you know, these tiny, slightly spiky insects.

And I was always really interested in the kind of

questions that you could use animals to, to, to help to

understand the light, the world a bit better.

And I was especially interested in behaviour, again, David

Attenborough's fault. And then I just sort of

accidentally fell into studying Wasps for my PhD because the

right, I was in the right place at the right time.

And, and the questions were about social behaviour, which

really interested me. So it was about why, why should

any individual give up the chance to reproduce to help

another individual? So that's the sort of the old

question to, to try and answer in evolution sociality.

And I, I remember sitting in the office of Jeremy Fields, who was

to become my PhD supervisor. And I said to him, well, I think

it's really interesting, but you know, I just don't like Wasps.

And he said, don't worry, no, no, these Wasps don't sting.

It's fine. You know, you'll be fine.

And of course that was a lie because of course they, they,

while they're stinging Wasps, they do sting.

But I have to say there are a great entry level Wasps, the

ones that I studied, they're a far cry from the Wasps that most

of your pest controllers deal with in the, they are these

Malaysian hover Wasps and they, they do sting.

They can sting, but it's, it's described as a fragrant tickle.

So it's not really anything thing like a punch.

So they were a very good entry level beginner's wasp.

And I realised, I remember the moment when I was lying on the

on the floor of this rainforest in Southeast Asia.

It sounds too heavy exotic and it was.

It wasn't very exotic at all. We lived in a in a wooden Hut

with no electricity and cold showers and it was all very

unglamorous. But the rainforest is amazing

and the Wasps in the rainforests were amazing.

And I remember lying on the jungle floor with a wasp nest

literally like this close to my face Wasps.

And we'd marked the Wasps, we knew what age they were.

We can put little paint dots on them.

So we'd follow their lives through for the last few weeks.

And I just remember thinking, wow, this is actually quite

cool. And these insects are so

misunderstood, so really fascinating, and they are just

like a little meerkat colony. So I managed to persuade myself

that, after all, I had ended up in the David Attenborough world

of studying like meerkats, cute little furry animals.

Except they were insect versions of meerkats.

Did you start to try and make the day without a revoice?

As you, as you, as you, as you were watching?

And then what's next? But it is, you know, I'm

watching was the Saturday I'm going to be any good at the

David Attenborough voice? But I definitely realised that

actually, you know, all parts of nature, even the bits of nature

that we find difficult to love, they do deserve our attention

because they are quite remarkable feats of evolution.

So so I guess that's when I sort of realised Wasps were OK.

But I still completely. Hung up on Wasps then and I went

study ants for a bit. So I went to Copenhagen to study

leaf cutting ants in Malaysia in sorry, in Panama.

So the post doc was in Copenhagen, but I spent time

doing field work in Panama. And these were these leaf

cutting ants that sort of troop through the jungle carrying the

leaves. Very amazing.

They live in, in an association with a fungus.

So they, they actually feed, they collect the leaves and they

put them in the fungus garden and then the fungus breaks down

the leaves and then they feed the fungus to their, to their

larvae. So it's symbiosis with the ants

and the fungus living together. And that was kind of cool.

But I realised that the Ant world was a little bit busy, a

little bit crowded. A lot of people study ants and,

and at the time when I was in Malay in Panama studying these

ants, I also happened to notice these amazing wasp colonies all

over the buildings and the places that we were staying.

And people were just saying, oh, there's a horrible that policies

Wasps. Oh, they're going to hurt you.

Oh, we knocked them down. And I realised that actually

they were just like a bigger, more slightly scary version of

the Wasps that I studied for my PhD in Malaysia.

And I decided to go back and study Wasps because I thought

the Ant world has got enough people.

The WASP world needs some cheerleaders.

And, and so, yeah, I've been studying Wasps ever since.

That's over 20 years ago now. And yeah.

And so I, I've become an accidental cheerleader for Wasps

because having not, you know, I'm just like your normal

person. I'm a product of culture that I

was brought up to fear Wasps, but I sort of see that, you

know, somebody's got to stick up for them and they're actually

really important as pest controllers and pollinators and

decomposers. And I think there's a really

strong message to be, to be shared there.

And my experience is that people don't take a lot of persuasion

to realise that actually they, they have a reason.

If they have a reason to tolerate them, then they're much

more amenable to trying to live alongside them.

I mean, it's quite like this summer, I've done a few nests

and this has customers where I've done more because it's in,

you know, where their door is. Like that's quite a dangerous

place where they've go. I've got two more in the back of

the garden, but don't worry. And I'm not bothered by them.

So then a lot, I've found a lot of this year, a lot of people

have left the Wasps alone. That ain't in danger because I

do. I do get sick of people

sometimes telling me they are nature's pest controllers.

And I said, I know. I said we, we, it's a public

health risk. That's why we, that's why we do

this. It's not like I go with my

backpack through the forest. Don't do that.

No, no, it's. Only.

An interest in public health fitters.

Yeah. Absolutely.

And, you know, I, if I had a wasp nest in a place that was

going to be dangerous to my family, then of course I would,

I would remove it. And it's really interesting

though, and, and, and good to hear what you say about

people's. I mean, it'd be interesting to

know if if the pest controller community in general have

noticed any shifts in people's reactions and responses to wasp

nests in the last few years. Well I noticed that on a few of

them that was all and she was like I'm only doing it because

it's doing. I don't like killing, killing

most because I know I've never noticed it before.

I'm not saying it's widespread. I could try and ask people if

they've experienced that. I don't know if if others have.

But. But it's a lot.

There's been a lot of ground nests this year.

A lot of nests in the ground are found, but they were early.

I don't know why. I can tell you why they're early

because the Wasps are doing they are textbook Wasps.

Honestly, it's like they've read the textbook.

They know that. Well, no, they don't know if

it's. We know from long term studies

that Wasps do really well if they have a warm, dry spring,

and that's because the foundresses have just come out

of hibernation in the spring. They're found in their nest,

that little small nest. And until the workers first

emerge, the queen is doing all of the foraging, all of the nest

building, all of the rearing of the brood herself.

Weather is cold and wet. There's less pray around.

She's more likely to get washed away and, you know, kills in the

rainstorm. And so we had a lovely warm, dry

spring this year. And that's a big impact on the

mortality, on the mortality rates of Wasps.

So many more founders colonies survived through to, to forming

colonies with workers and they were able to go in quite early.

So the nest and, and you know, we've had an amazing summer.

And so the there's been a lot more insects in general than at

least compared to last summer anyway.

And. That's say, yeah, that's a

reflection of the the goods weather and the the, you know,

the fact there's lots more plant growth as well.

And so because there's lots of prey around, the Wasps have

actually done quite well. And so I know early on, I mean,

I, I know this because I normally get calls from the

media about what's at the end of the summer, around about the end

of August when they start to bring picnics.

And I always say that the bank holiday weekend in August is

it's like some kind of silly season for the media.

It's like nothing else in the world is going on.

And so they have to talk about Wasps.

And every year it's the same as why are there so many Wasps?

How do we get rid of Wasps? I ask the same questions every

year. But this this year, those media

interviews kicked off really early.

Like I think the end of June, June, early July, people were

already being bothered by Wasps, so it was I.

Did I did I had a couple on my local radio because I like we,

we have adverts or like it's community radio.

We see it's like helping the community, but like they were at

an event where it was like the national where I live in

Rutland, you see, and they do bird fair.

It's like a it's like it's like a place where people come from

all over the world and the presenter said there was Wasps

everywhere they were. I said I said I could have

helped had you because there is there is a device you ever heard

of the wasp bane traps the help the stem stem the problem that

you ever heard of them. Which, well, I've heard of lots

of types of Austria. What?

What kind? Of it's, it's a wasp, it's

called wasp Bane and it captures the scouts.

So you reduce the numbers to the area, but but they never did so.

But basically it was that how do we just basic advice like don't

flap your wings like everyone does that, don't they?

Yeah. So they think you, you want to

fight. Yeah.

You know, just basic advice. It was, yeah.

Yeah, well, I mean, one of the things I've been doing this

summer is trying to get the public to take part in this kind

of citizen science project. So when it comes to you at your

picnic or if you're in a cafe outside, don't flap, sit still,

watch the wasp and see what she goes for.

And I just watching to see what she wants.

You can learn quite a lot about their behaviour and the type of

the, the stage of the colony cycle.

Because as you know, they'll be going for protein most of the

summer. But then towards the end of the

summer, they'll start to go more for sugar because the larvae are

pupated. And so they don't get that

sugary reward from the larvae anymore and there's less larvae

to feed. And so they are more likely to

need to go elsewhere for sugar. And they tend to go to they'll

go to plants, which is when they start, you know, good

pollination, but they'll also come to our sugary drinks.

And so I got put the public to sort of fill in a very simple

Google form of what's your boss going for at your picnic?

And it was really interesting people from all over the world

taking part. We haven't analysed the data

yet, but we had over 500 people submit their records.

And, and what was really lovely is it was really surprising that

I expected it to shift from mostly protein to, to, to sugar

later on. But actually it maintained its

kind of protein sugar splits pretty much all the time.

And we have to split that down by the country, by countries and

see if it's a different effect of latitude.

But what was also really lovely is that people left little

comments and they told a story about their experience of the

Wasps. And I think, you know,

irrespective of how useful the data are, it means that it's,

it's helped people respond to boss in a different way.

And actually, if a boss does bother you, a picnic, you just

have to give her a little wasp buffering.

Like if she wants a bit of your, your sausage or, you know, your

ice cream and just give her a tiny bit and she'll happily go

back and forth from that tiny bit and not bother you.

It's when you start moving things around and flapping,

shouting and wafting your arms around that they're you're more

likely to get stung because you're behaving like the

predators. Then, as you say, they're up for

a fight. Yeah, well, that, that honestly,

that was great voice. I didn't, I didn't know you

could do that. And they'd go to that piece of

food. I didn't know that.

Yeah, so you have to, I mean, when they come into your picnic,

they kind of, they did this sort of zigzagging thing in front of

you and that's because they're very visual and they're using

you as a landmark. And so that's why when they're

zigzagging in front of your face, it can be quite

intimidating. But they're just pulling you up

and working out where that food is in relation to this landmark

that you are. And then they will happily chew

on a little bit of your food and they're completely oblivious to

you. You can get really close and,

and you know, take a lovely photo, they're chewing away a

bit of ham or something and then they'll go away.

And if it's protein, they're much more likely to be coming

back because they fall back and forth to the nest with the

protein. So what you need to do is just

to take a bit of that ham or whatever it is they're eating

and just move it slightly further away from your plate and

they will come back to it. If you move it too far, then

they'll still come back to your plate because that's what, And

then gradually, if she's coming back and forth over time, you

can move it further away. But, you know, I've seen this

done. This isn't, you know, this isn't

anything new. I've seen people do this all

over the world. You know, I remember being on

holiday in, in Italy a few years ago and outside with the family

having, you know, Cafe having pizza.

And there was there was a big table in the middle of the kind

of outdoor area eating area with a pile of cooked ham on it.

And there were hundreds of Wasps on it.

But that meant that they weren't bothering us and we were eating

our pizzas with no Wasps bothering us so.

Don't. You left that out on purpose?

Yes. The way to.

Oh, OK. Oh, and.

It's a common tactic and I don't know why we've not really caught

on to that. You know, in areas of the world

where these Wasps are invasive and they are, you know, there's

a lot of Wasps, too much even. I would say there's probably too

many Wasps in place. Argentina, they will, when they

go for a picnic, they will bring along a smelly piece of fish and

put it a few, a few 100 metres away from them, a few metres

away from them. And then the odds will go to

that bit of smelly fish and leave them alone.

So it's just a wasp offering. It's it works quite well.

Oh well, I know it's not new, but it's it's interesting.

I think it is, and I think it's a it's a really good tactic for

learning to live alongside what you know, we there are even if

you've got rid that one wasp at your picnic, there's going to be

another one coming along. And so we have to live alongside

them because we can't just keep killing things that we find a

nuisance. Yeah, it's.

It's a good idea, but it's for barbecues.

I'll be giving that bit of information out next year.

I will. When they ask me, I'll be, I'll

be giving that out and I'll be and I'll be trying it as well.

Yeah. Definitely, yeah.

People interested, they're watching the insects and then it

suddenly they lose the fear and they realise we're really close

to that insect and, and it's not bothering them.

You know it's not going to come and fly at them and and

obviously if you frighten it, it might fly at you, but you know,

you just move slowly and and they're and they're not really

not really interested in us at all.

I'll. Be trying this.

I'll be trying to take part in this survey next year then

because I think that's I missed that somehow.

You know what? I've been meaning to do it for

years. And then I just this year,

because the media kept calling me so early and I was so much

radio, I was fed up with my own voice.

I said the same over and over again on the radio and I

thought, well, I may as well pitch it because, you know,

there's lots of people listening and they might do it.

And I was so surprised is that people were doing it.

So yeah, I hoped to do it again next year.

That would be really good. Oh.

No, it's a, it's that a big, it's that a big number for you

in terms of a survey on Moss. Is that quite big, 500?

I mean, if I was saying it's only really a pilot study, 500

is not that many. And as I said, we've not really

analysed the data yet. So we'll have to sort of tease

out, you know, the, if people have reported what people report

in, you know, Italy, for example, what they might report

in the UK because the wasp colonies will be at different

stages in the colony cycle potentially.

So I don't know how useful the data are going to be yet, but I

think it's nice because it's almost like even if the data

isn't that useful scientifically, it's actually an

engagement tool and it helps people overcome their fear of

Wasps and understand a little bit about their biology because

it's kind of interactive for them.

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's good.

It's good to hear like this because it's trying to get

people less scared of WASP. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. I tell people to calm down, just

don't panic, you'll be OK. And a lot of them just flap

instantly. I said you're attacking it.

And what do you tell them that they realise?

Yeah. Yeah, they go like this.

I. Said one to one person.

You're just going to get everyone stoned in a minute, you

are. Yeah, you know, actual response,

isn't it? I mean, it is, you know, like we

go, oh, protect ourselves. But yeah, that's.

True, you're so the book did was it widely received by the

public, the the book? Have you got any feedback on the

book at all? No, it's been.

It's done all right. You know, I've been by my

publishers that it's what do they describe it as?

The sales are solid, which I think average.

OK, OK. I'm very happy with average as

long as it's not like a below average.

So yeah, I mean it does better. WASP times of the year, people

get interested in Wasps, they want to read them, and it does

quite well at Christmas as well. But it's, yeah, no, I think I

mean, the reason I wrote it was that I was spending a lot of my

time doing talks to like, village halls of like WI or

history clubs or history societies.

And, you know, there might be sort of 50 or so people in the

room. And I could see how when I

talked to them about Wasps, you know, they, they, they all I

asked for, you know, who likes Wasps here?

And hardly anyone puts their hand up, obviously.

And then I tell them, you know, these are the reasons why you

should love Wasps. And I see the room change,

especially when I say, look, they're really important for

pest control. They really important regulating

insect populations and they pollinate and immediately the

room changes. They're like, oh, I get it.

I get why I should like Wasps. And I thought, OK, this I know

I've got a sort of story here, but I can't just I can't change,

you know, 1 village hall. It's time.

I can't really change. You know, people's book is a bit

more of a broader, broader view, broader, broader reaching.

So I think it's I think it's been largely received.

OK. I mean, obviously like any book,

you know, so some people, some people like that kind of book

and some people don't. So it's not everybody's tea.

I know that there's one. There's one chapter in my book,

I don't know if you remember it, but I have a dinner party with

Aristotle. Oh, I enjoyed that.

I thought that was great. OK, that's.

Honest, I like that I did. So I'm.

Actually I'm actually I'm actually re listing to at the

minute as well because I am it's but I haven't got to that.

But I'm not a far in yet. But that is good but.

That's that's the bit which is most relevant to pest you're the

pest controlling community because it's about those best

buying Wasps. It's about the yellow jacket

Wasps and, and Aristotle wrote about these yellow jacket Wasps

2000 years ago. And what he wrote was actually

remarkably accurate. And, and so I thought, well, you

know what I, what I'd, what I'd like to do is kind of bring him

up to speed with what we know about Wasps and what we don't

know what you know, what we should know, what we know about

honey bees, but we don't know about wasp because the yellow

jacket was to like the honeybee of the insect world, so of the

wasp world, Sorry. And so it's, it's almost like,

well, you know, we should be drawing those parallels.

And, and Aristotle also wrote a lot about honey bees, absolutely

loved honey bees. So I've used that chapter.

There's a lot of artistic licence.

And actually that is a chapter that's very Marmite.

People either love it or they hate it and see.

I suppose though as well, sorry, it see if you read that.

I don't see I've not read the book.

I've listened to the book. So if you listen to the book,

you probably get it more because you're you're, you're reading

Enya. So you you read it really well.

So I don't know how I'll have to ask my mate Sam, because he

loved the book, how he came across with because he actually

read it. You don't have to ask him.

I will. Yeah, but I know that some

people, particularly the more scientific audiences, you know,

they're reading what they think science book, but and actually

they get this crazy chapter and I think this is my favourite bit

of feedback though one of the forums online, which you should

never read if you've written a book.

But anyway, but anyway, one of these one of these feedback like

reviews online was this is the most eccentric science book I

have ever read. I thought, yes, so I mean, it's

a bit wacky and yeah, it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I,

you know, I know that I had one of my, my, I've got 3 kids and I

think at the time my team, my eldest was 15 or 16.

You're not, you know, not really keen on reading, but I gave him

that chapter to read and he actually enjoyed it because it

was much more relatable than something that it's a bit more

sort of dry and, you know, standard sciency book.

So anyway, I, I enjoyed it and I know that it's a bit of a

Marmite, but you know, I, I'm interested, I was interested to

hear people's opinions. I, I liked it because I, I

listened to it and then I thought, I thought it was good.

I might, I may get it to read it.

I'm trying to get back into reading.

You know how a lot of people read books, but they move on.

But I need to get back into reading.

I do. You know, books are a great way

of, you know, you can listen to them.

You can also listen to them at sort of 1 1/2 speed if you want.

Or don't listen to me at double speed.

I'll be like, yeah. I don't.

I'm not. Yeah, I'm no good at listening

to it at double at any kind of speed.

I'm not. I'm not.

I like listening to books as well, so I I do a combination

of. When I heard you talk about the

mud Wasps, I want, I look at them.

I've got YouTube and it looks, you know, it's videos of them.

It looks fascinating to me. Yeah, it's fascinating stuff.

It is. We build them.

I think that's one of the things that I wanted to get across in

the book is that everybody thinks of a wasp as the yellow

jackets, the ones that, you know, get live in people's

houses and sheds. But actually there's over

100,000 species of Wasps. That blew my mind, honestly.

That's what. There's probably 5 to 10 times

more to discover because they are so understudied and

admittedly most of them, 70% of wasp species are these

parasitoids which don't have stings at all.

And they are, they lay their eggs in in inside insects like

caterpillars and beetle larvae. And then the, and then they,

they don't build a nest or anything.

They just lay their egg and go and then the egg hatches into a

baby lava wasp and then it will eat through the the prey.

And so the majority of Wasps are like that and that's where

probably the majority of the undiscovered species are as

well. But even amongst the stinging

Wasps sick, there's still, I think it's less than 1% of them

are actually social. And so there are, you know,

there's over 30,000 species of, of solitary Wasps that live in

these, like the mud daubers that live in these other pots and, or

make these little parts, lay an egg in it and then seal it up

and, and say goodbye. So there's there's a huge

diversity of watts and that's what I really wanted to get

across. No, you definitely got that

across. But we've, we've parasitic Wasps

that's been a big talking point in pest control at the minute.

Because what your thoughts on that?

Because there's been not every cup you can now buy parasitic

Wasps to say you've got a mop infestation in a house.

You can and that's becoming a lot more.

It not every, it's not mainstream.

It's, it's getting there because it's more eco friendly.

But the problem is it's conveying the message.

I'm going to release hundreds of Wasps that you can't see and

they won't sting yet it's convincing them you won't see

them. But it's it's, it's becoming

more, there was more talk about in the industry, let's say.

Did you like that? Kind of?

Yeah. Did you like that idea?

Yeah, no. I do and I, I did, we have

bought. So I'm just thinking, my

daughter has lots of plants in her bedroom and she had thrips

on her plants. And so I persuaded her that we

should get some parasitoids and she did have the bedroom for a

while, but I'm afraid that the thrips came back.

But yeah, no, it's absolutely the way forward.

I mean, you know, The thing is that the great thing about the

parasitoid Wasps is that once they are, yes, there are lots of

little tiny Wasps potentially from within your cupboards and

stuff, but then they are laying their eggs in these, in these

caterpillars and then they will die.

And once the caterpillars have died and all the moths have

gone, then the boss will die as well.

So I think, you know, again, we need to just sort of just the

way that we live and such that it's alongside nature and with

nature making the most of nature, rather than trying to

use chemicals all the time because those chemicals, of

course, aren't good for your health, you know, people's

health inside the house. So I think, you know, parasoid

was spoiled is it's, it's one of the, I'd like I say that Wasps

are understudied, but the exception is the parasitoids

because they are incredibly well, a few, a very small number

of them are really well studied for exactly the reasons that

you've just stated that they are used for, for pest control.

And I think the domestic use of them is probably at very low

level. I have to say they're quite

expensive, you know. See, I've never looked.

I actually looked in how much they cost, but actually, can you

actually see them or is it like a tiny fly?

Is it real mind you? Can you actually see them?

Oh. You really wouldn't notice them

OK see them at all? No, but you know, they are

expensive to buy. And so they are Paris toy was to

use on scale, though on a massive scale for pest control

in, in greenhouses and in, in agriculture.

And, and actually it there's, there are factories in Brazil

that produce like billions of parasitoids.

And then they mop into kind of these football type things.

And then they fly drones over the fields, which are like the

fields are like a size of drop the balls for the parasitoids

into the fields. And then toys emerge and then

find the pests and lay their eggs.

And they're really effective. So that billions are ahead of

the curve in, in the use of parasitoids as pest control.

Yeah. I just think it's going to

become, it will become more part of it because everyone's getting

more environmental friendly. They are obviously we've lost.

He went on, he's in beasties last year, didn't he?

With Sean and and Alex, they mentioned the removal of the

product. Vicam D Benny Carr yeah, we're

not using that. We've all moved different

chemicals now we have that was the bed that was gold dust to be

fair. But I've not really struggled

this year on the the other product products I'm using.

I haven't so so. What sort of what's what are the

chemicals that are used now for Wasps?

Pyrethroids. I use something called deadline

pie Dust and so far it's, it's been, it's been, I've had a few

callbacks, not as many as I've thought, but it's working.

That one particular is better for the environment, that one.

I would explain the logistics to you, but I'm not an expert in

it. I just know it's meant to be

really good and it does work. I'm not a junior.

I'm still learning it all, you see, because it's, it's worked

well, but after so long, it gets ingrained in your brain, it

doesn't it? I've not got to that level yet.

I haven't I. Haven't.

I've said I've met some really, really revolutionary forward

thinking pest controllers in the last couple of years and they

are doing things like being aware that maybe killing the

nest, You know, as you said, you know, you're already saying, you

know, you don't have when you get a call out, talking it

through with the, with the clients saying, well, you know,

this isn't a danger to you. It's at the bottom of your

garden or you can put a barrier around it or you, you know,

let's try and leave it. But also I met the well, I

haven't met, I've only talked to him online.

This pest controller in in South Wales and he I think it's called

platoon pests, I think is a company Terry.

Hi Terry. And he's trying to relocate was

nest. So he's trying to, when he

removes the nest, when he gets a call out and he can remove the

nest and he'll try and move it to a farm where it can be

useful. And it's just anecdotal, but he

he told us about how he'd moved nest to his mate's farm where he

had a problem with flies on horses and the Wasps somehow.

Well, whether it was coincidence or not, but after he introduced

a few wasp nests into the farm, the levels of flies had dropped.

And that makes sense because there was to the course hunting

the flies. And so I think that's a really

interesting idea. And whether there's a future

where pest controllers are not just sticking the chemicals in,

but they're actually trying to reload, remove the nest colony

alive and relocate it. And there are ways of doing that

without it being, you know, I mean, you know, we dig up wasp

nests for research purposes and they, you know, there's lots of

Wasps flying around. You know, you have to be

careful, but we use carbon dioxide to kind of knock them

down for a bit. So just using the soda stream

and a bit of piping and stuff. And a local pest controller,

Steve. Hi, Steve.

If you're the near where I live in Oxfordshire, he's been doing

that with his nests. I think, you know, I think it's

really exciting time that the pest control community is really

thinking hard about their, their responsibility to, to the

natural world and different ways of kind of helping.

Obviously helping keep people safe and human safety comes

first. But trying to work out if it's

possible to relocate a nest, then, you know, let's do it.

I think the main problem probably is finding out where to

put it. Do you know what's the chances

of the ones you've been speaking to of survival?

Have they, have the nest actually survived, you know?

Yeah, because you've got to. So, yeah, so we were, we, we

relocate wasp nest sometimes for research purposes and you lose a

lot of the workers, but you know, it's, it's generally OK.

The main problem is it depends what, what you put them in

because they can get mouldy if it's not enough ventilation.

So it has to be a box that's well ventilated, but they're

generally quite good as long as you move them.

You need to move them at least like a few kilometres away is.

Steve, you're talking about Steve Light.

Yes, Steve Light. He's what?

He's watching. Yeah, I told you about this.

Tonight, yeah, he's doing a great job with this canister.

Yeah. So I think it's really exciting

time and but but but the problem is where to put the nest.

So I think if pest controllers can partner up with farmers who

might be interested in exploring the idea of having Wasps on

their farms as natural control, then I think that could be a

really nice partnership. No, it's, it sounds there is a

lot of people trying it. There's a lot of people.

I think there is a future in it happening.

The uptake will be slow to start with obviously, but I do think

there's a feature in it somewhere for certain people

that want to do it. I do, don't get me wrong.

I've seen people online on Facebook groups take the

absolute Mickey out of people for doing that.

But if someone, generally if someone's there are people out

there now offering to the killer nest and there's some people

that will relocate for if they, if it's the right situation and

they can, they offer it as a premium to relocate it.

And probably there is some people doing it for like like

£20 more or something. They're like relocating.

There are some people doing it. You know how 4 Internet forums

can be. You get loads taking the Mickey

and all and do that and things like that.

But it pest controls ever evolving.

It doesn't stay the same. You've got to try and come up

with different ideas you have as well, yeah.

And in fact, if I came across, I'm just looking for the name of

the person I came across this other pest controller in the US

and now I'm not going to be able to find it is.

It the YouTube channel I sent you sent me that's.

Right, I sent it to you. What was the name Alex somebody

or other? But I I thought that was really

cool as well. And so this guy is, is trying

to, well, he offers, actually, I've looked at his website as

well. He he relocated.

Waspa way. He's called Waspa way.

Waspa way, that's right, yeah, on.

YouTube people, I didn't get a chance to look at it, but I but

I will. I will.

I've subscribed. Yeah, I will.

I will. I will look at it.

I will tumbled across it because he he found me on Facebook and,

you know, requested friends. I thought, oh, who's this?

And then I saw some of his videos and he relocates them

mainly for his, for getting venom, for this sort of anti

venom treatment for people who are very allergic.

But look at some of the videos you'll see.

I mean, he's got the methods all sussed, you know, he knows what

he's doing. Oh.

So he showed you what he's doing?

Oh. No, no, I only watched the

videos that he provided on Facebook page or.

So I'll go and have a look. So does he actually show you him

doing it? Recording he actually.

Moves the nest, but it's him in his vespiary with lots of nests

hanging up and it all looks like incredibly easy.

And I think there is I think the more that, you know, the pest

control community starts talking about this and thinking about

it, you know, as you say, it won't be for everybody.

Not everybody will be prepared to do it or able to do it.

But and you know, not every nest is easily.

If you've got like in the rafters of a of a roof, then

there's no way you can relocate that because you just can't get

the whole nest out. But if it's a nice, if you come

across a nice football sized nest and you can just go up and

you know, gas it and then just grab the whole nest and put it

in a box and and relocate. The Wasps are really good at

reorientating because as I said, they use visual landmarks really

well. And so as long as you move them

far enough away from where their original home was a couple of

kilometres, they shouldn't, they should be fine.

If you only move them down the road, like 100 metres or a few

100 metres and they'll just go back to their old old.

Well sometimes they do get nests that are ghost nests where

they're getting lost and it's actually the window next door.

Sometimes when the windows are they, they kind of get lost.

I've seen it before where it was 2 houses down.

All the houses look the same and the wasp nest was actually 2

houses down. So funny it was.

When beekeepers have lots of hives close together they might

put little like markings on the hive front can orientate, so you

can do that with Wasps as well. Give one little triangle 1A

square or something. If there was one thing you could

say to pest, pest controllers to try and be better at their job

or be more thoughtful or what, what would you say that could

help pest controllers in a way to because I always think the

chemical change has changed things and and we keep losing a

lot of chemicals. I'm not, I'm not a complainer.

It's just the way it is. That's life, you know, is there

any way we can research Wasps or any way their biology to like

kind of be better at the job or, you know, in dealing with wasp

nests? Yeah.

Do you think? I think what you've said already

is what you guys are doing. So when you're going to call

out, you know, talk to the client, see if well assess the

situation because you're also you probably know a lot more

about Wasps than they do and you can probably make a good

assessment of oh, you know, there's like.

They've got a dog and a cat and three babies and like, OK, it's

not good to have a baby nest around here, even if it's in the

roof. And then the situation where

you're like, well, you know, there's sort of a young couple,

they don't really have any kids or pets and it's tucked away in

the, in the, in the roof. I think, you know, making that

assessment on and advising them whether they can live alongside

the nest instead and making it clear to them.

But the most people don't realise that by the end of the

autumn, the Wasps, you know, as soon as the really cold weather

comes, the whole, the whole colony will just be gone.

All the workers will die and the, the mate, if Queens will

disappear and, and you know, then they, they're unlikely to

come back and use, they won't reuse the same nest.

They might often people end up having a nest in the same place

year after year because it's just happens to be a good

location for but you know, I think most people think because

honey bees, of course, their colonies live year after their

perennials. So they they're always there for

they're hit there for several years.

And that's not the case for Wasps.

I think persuading people that, oh, you've especially this time

of year, you know, they've only got two or three weeks left

really of life. And that's the critical time

when they're producing the sexuals, which will then go on

from the colonies for next year. I think, I think not been

released. I thought the Queen's has

already been released, have they not?

Yeah, depends. On the comments, certainly you

know, they're producing sexuals at this time of year and you

know they weren't, they don't, they're not all producing one go

and they've gone. They're.

Oh, OK. Even if you, you know, you'll

know that if you collect, if you remove a nest, even at the end

of the autumn, they'll be producing worker larvae.

Yeah, they're still producing worker brood as well as the

sexual brood. They just keep on going as long

as they can. So they'll always be queen, new

Queens being produced in the mail and they're leaving.

They'll leave one there when they're ready.

So. Managing people's options and

expectations. And then I think also, you know,

I, I would encourage you to think about, you know, as a

community, you know, ways, methods, approaches to try and

relocate colonies, maybe using carbon dioxide to knock the

Wasps down so you don't kill them, but they're knocked out so

you can easily handle them and you won't get stung.

And I know, yeah, I've got another good friend of mine who

comes over from New Zealand every year, Bob Brown.

He's a researcher and he in New Zealand, the Wasps are really

invasive. And so they're they cause

enormous amount of ecological so, so there is definitely a

problem there that they need to get removal.

So he comes here to study the parasites that live in our wasp

nest because there are lots, it's not just the Wasps in that

nest. There's all sorts of other micro

organisms and organisms like little beetle larvae and fly

larvae and parasitoid larvae. And they are all kind of feeding

on the brood. And so you.

Should say that that answers the question actually, because were

you the wasp nest recently that was on the plaster board and it

was in danger of, you know, coming through soon.

And we obviously used the we've got thermal camera and we had to

use the thermal to pinpoint it to kill the nest because it

literally was like you could sit, you could, you could feel

the hate of it. It wouldn't have took much for

them to come through. So what we had to do was put

some holes directly in. What we noticed was on one of

the holes a little bug came down and I was like, what is that?

So it must be one of these parasites you're talking about.

Yeah. Exactly.

There are lots of different organisms that live in wasp

nests and they're not well studied at all, but there are a

few species that are, are known to be quite important in eating

them, eating the brood. So they have an effect on the

wasp nest. And So what what Bro Brown is

doing is taking these Paris, these parasites back to New

Zealand. They're bio control.

They use this bio control against the Wasps.

So he's, you know, the obviously is very strict conditions on

release of bio control agents in in places like New Zealand, but

he's got the permissions and now he's releasing them.

And so hopefully that's a way of of controlling them.

But sorry, the reason I was going to tell you about that is

that he comes along with his vacuum cleaner.

And he? Wants the Wasps alive and whole

colony but especially if it's in somebody's house Yeah, well, he

sort of, you know, he gets the nest with his carbon dioxide but

he's still got lots of Wasps flying around and he'll just

vacuum them up with his hands. Vacuum cleaners.

That's another way to catch them We've.

Got one. Then we've we've got a it's for

bees, but we've never, it's never been, never been used.

We don't do anything to do with bees but tell what I find.

The public love bees but often tell us they've got Wasps when

they're bees. We're now right now in the

appointment that if we will ID something, if you, if you send

us a photograph, we've ID it for you when you turn up and it's

bees, it will charge you for the call out and we won't do it.

We've got a bloke who we recommend to do bee removal and

the minute he goes you suck the chimney and says ah, you're

joking do you mate? It's his bees right looking.

Yeah, it's bees. Oh just thought there wasnesses

wasness very rarely ever go in chimney pods.

But a? Lot, a lot of people around, you

know, the bee swarm season, they ring us.

I've got a, I've got a wasp swarm.

You haven't, You haven't. But I find it weird because

everyone says they love bees. They ring you and tell you that

you have got Wasps. Yeah, they will.

Yeah. You know.

It's really common. I I get that as well.

They say we've got a wasp nest, come and have a look.

It's like, oh, it's bees. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, just leave them alone if you can, you know, but.

I think it's interesting because actually most people, I mean,

maybe they can't tell their bees because they're quite far away.

They just see them flying in and out.

But if you give, if somebody sees a wasp, they will know it

somehow. Whereas most people can't really

identify a honeybee unless they see it in the context of the

hive. See an insect on a flower and

it's a honeybee. Most people can't tell you it's

a honeybee. They might say it's a bee or

they might say it's a wasp. Yeah.

And tell a wasp. They can normally say what a

wasp is, unless it's, of course it's a mimicking wasp like a a

family that's mimicking. Oh.

I've had, I had that one year where a lady sending me a photo

and I said it's a it was a, it was a of a fly mimic cornet.

And she goes, no, it ain't. I says it is.

It's not. What do?

You say like it is interesting. I'll tell you, I had an

interesting thing this year where there was a, there was a

hedge we had and the lady was quite right to think it was a

wasp nest. We got our suit on and what they

were doing, they they actually made a hole in the top of the

hedge, like you drop it into a wasp nest and they were just

targeting aphids and all insects in there and all the moths were

going to that hedge and they were using it as a feeding

station. That's literally what it was.

And I couldn't believe it. Yeah.

I mean, you know what you said about what what can pest

controllers do to sort of, well, maybe this wasn't the question

you were asking, but but. That's fine.

Yeah, I'm. Really interested in what you

guys observe. And you know, that's amazing

what you've just told me it is. I've never seen it before, like

in that way. I've seen them feed aphids, but

I've never seen them go down. You know how when there's a wasp

nest, they make like a hole in the Bush?

Yeah. I didn't take a photo of it

though, didn't think to. And then it's like, because we

always say, and you go into one area and she was like, yes,

normally you go in and out one, you know, in the hole, out, out.

They were doing that motion, but they were just feeding on the

aphids and all the insects in the Bush.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

There wasn't nothing there. But those little kind of bits of

information that you, you, you, you, you know, you guys all have

from just having picked up and observed things, I think it'd be

really lovely to kind of be able to, to hear more of those

stories because I think there's a lot of information, You know,

these Wasps are not, even though everyone knows what yellow

jacket wasp is, they're remarkably understudied relative

to most other insects. And there was so much that we

don't really know about them. So, you know, their feeding

behaviour is a really important thing to, to learn about.

It helps people identify what's going on and also to manage them

and to, you know, if you know they're feeding in that Bush,

you know that they're really not going to bother you because

they're in the Bush. They're not interested in you.

Just leave the Bush alone. You'll be fine.

Yeah. Exactly, it was do you think our

was not a study because the funding isn't there?

Because I'd imagine that bees, you know, it's a billion dollar

industry, is it? I bet you it should do with

money, isn't it? Well, I'd imagine.

So obviously there's the, there's bees and bees.

So, right, you know, the same way that people think that Wasps

are just yellow jacket Wasps, people bees are just honey bees.

But there's 22,000 species of bees and you know, you've got

bumble bees and you've got species of humble bees, crumble

bees and of honey bees, sorry. And then there's lots of species

of solitary bees. And so, and again, most bees are

solitary, they live alone. And so it's, it's one of those

things that, you know, people just think honey bees are, are

the only bees out there. And of course, you know,

beekeeping is big business and everything.

And that is partly why we have learnt so much about bees.

You know, Aristotle studied bees because, you know, we've always

had this strong relationship with honey bees.

They're almost semi domesticated.

So we have tremendous knowledge and they are fascinating.

But more recently, I think people have shifted their kind

of not shifted, but included or added on an extra reason to

appreciate and study these, which is because the of of

pollination. And I, you know, when I was a

child, you know, we weren't talking about putting out bee

hotels in our gardens and planting bee friendly flowers.

And you know, OK, we like, oh, there's a bee, but it wasn't

like, oh, there's a bee. Can I have a bee and can I have

a bee mug and can I have a bee Broly?

It'd bee pen and everything is being merchandised.

It'd bee. We've people going crazy for

bees. And the reason is that the

there's been a lot more focus on we need to care about the bees

because they're really important as pollinators and that's really

important. And that messages has been done

so well and the media have done a lot to help that as well.

But you know, children's books about bees, children learn about

the importance of pollination and bees, but they don't learn

about the importance of Wasps as pest controllers or you know,

spiders as pest controllers or bees as pest controllers.

They just learn about the bees and the butterflies.

So I think, you know, there is there is a lot and that's partly

why people like bees. But but coming back to the

funding thing, there's definitely been a lot of funding

put into pollinator in research because we are, we are worried

about, you know, we have good reason to be worried about the

declining insect populations, the decline in pollinator

populations because we rely on them for pollinating our crops

and also pollinating wild ecosystems.

But we equally depend on the other insects, things like

what's for controlling and as pest controllers.

So I think the research has been a little bit the the funding for

research has been a little bit sort of biassed towards

pollinators. Maybe, maybe the the day of the

pest control, what insect is is coming, maybe our our funding

maybe come soon. No, it might be.

It might be I'm I'm doing the course at the minute a diploma

for in entomology so I can learn more more about insects and how

how it all works to be insect insect identified.

I'm not I know what normal pests are.

But I said we carry identification.

I would like to be 1 of people that is more knowledgeable about

insects. Be honest, I would.

Yeah, I mean, it'd be really lovely to get more pest

controllers being members of the Royal Entomological Society

because they are really, you know, it's a very old, it's

almost 200 years old, the, the Royal Entomological Society and

it's, it's really expanding its membership and, and in very,

very inclusive. And, and it's, it's, it's a,

it's a portal to insect science for people to learn about

insects and to meet other people to learn about insects from them

and share stories. And so I do encourage your your

listeners to to join the Royal Entomological Society to learn

about you don't get a diploma, but you do get to meet a bunch

of cool people. You have to have a like a degree

in entomology to be in it, no? Anyone can be no.

Because this diploma is just a diploma, that's it's not like a

degree. No, no, no.

Steve's done it as well before, I think he told me.

That's what he told me, yeah. Yeah, I mean, no, the Royal

Entomological Society, anyone can be a member.

You know, there's no criteria. You know, if you're interested

in insects, you want to learn more about insects and they have

specialist groups. So there will be, you know,

there are the pollinator groups and there'll be pest controller

groups and bees groups. There's no wasp group.

Actually, maybe we should set one up.

There you go. Oh, another thing I wanted to

tell you about is that at the moment at UCL, Sorry little

plug. So it's fine.

It's absolutely fine. It's fine at.

UCL at the moment we have an, an exhibition which is free and

open to the public on, in the, on the, it's called the World of

Wasps, which I do believe is the first WASP exhibition, WASP art

exhibition in the world. And it's a bronze Museum of

zoology at UCL and it's on till the end of January.

So UCL is right sit in the centre of London.

So if you find yourself in the Houston Tottencote Rd area, then

you can just pop in and have a look.

And we've got this. It's got all my, it's got a lot

of my wasp nest collections in there.

It's really curated by the museum staff and it's in a

collaboration with some digital arts people who've made this VR

headset Where. You can.

Experience crawling inside a yellow jacket nest.

Flying your yellow jacket was through the Rewilded Grant

Museum. It's very cool.

And there's also an amazing paper art by artist Peter Ayers,

who's recreated his version, a yellow jacket wasp nest out of

paper, just from folded paper. It's really incredible.

So I, I do recommend people to go along to see that because

it's, I mean, you know, where else is there an exhibition on

Wasps? No, I've never heard of 1

before. I haven't.

Yeah, no, well, I I just say I think this is probably the first

one that he really makes exhibitions about was, but it's

all about, you know, displaying the world of us and as much more

to Wasps and just the yellow jacket Wasps and how incredible

they are in their communication and how important they are in

ecosystems. So it's an exhibition that's

embedded within the museum and like projections of of Wasps on

the wall. So you'd be like looking around

the museum and then you'll suddenly see this, this wasp

scuttled across the wall in front of you.

It's a projection of it. No, it's very cool.

It's very have. You had anyone, have you had

anyone jump at the protection not realising it's not real?

Yeah, probably. I think so, yeah.

Yeah, No, we've had some lovely feedback.

It's been on since I think it was June.

It opens. It's it's a sort of relatively

long running exhibition, but it's a.

Lot it's a lot of pest controllers that actually live

in London that listen to this podcast.

So you might get some go, you never know.

Museum UCL, Yeah, just wait. Just if you just Google World of

Wasps, you'll come across in London, you'll come across the

exhibition. So, yeah, OK.

But yeah, no, I don't. I'm conscious of time.

I don't want to go over the hour because I know you're busy.

You are. But is, is there anything else

you wanted to mention at all about about?

But I think you've covered it when it comes to pest

controllers, haven't you? I mean, you know, I, I really

get, I mean, I was, I was always slightly wary of pest

controllers because of what I do.

I say I was, but actually, I, I've got so many lovely pest

controllers who, and I think, you know, you, you, you're

keeping people safe and you're also thinking about how to do it

in a more sustainable way. And obviously you're limited by

the, you know, the, the tools that you have at your disposal.

But I, I, I just, I think you're a very entrepreneurial crowd and

I think you have the potential to revolutionise and innovate

and, and you know, we'd love to work with you more.

And, and I think again, as I said, you know, this idea of a

collaboration with farmers, if relocating wasp nests is a thing

that could happen, I think that's, I think that's a really

exciting area. Yeah, though someone did say

something about that Jason in the Facebook chat.

He just said he thinks it's a great, I think he thinks it's a

great idea, but he, he's not sure that some con farm, some

farmers could be convinced by it.

You probably have to convey it properly.

That's the other side of the of the kind of the coin, isn't it

really? And, and, and you know, the same

way that pest controllers, you know, you have a really good

understanding that these insects are really valuable.

I think the farming community is, is also a community that we

need to be talking to and about the values of these insects.

And again, as as people are increasingly thinking about

cutting down on the use of chemicals in agriculture, we

should be looking more to these natural enemies, these natural

pest controllers. And, and you know, if if the

great thing about these wasp nests is that you can treat

them, if you imagine, like with what they do with the honeybee

colonies is in the States, they will move colony hives of bees

across the country to different crops at different times.

They work, they're being hard. So you can relocate colonies if

you've got them in a hive. And you can do the same with

what's. So, you know, if if farmer, you

know, farmer Jones down the road wants some Wasps in his in his

field to catch the pest in his field for a few weeks, you put

the wasp, Sir. And then if farmer, farmer, you

know, farmer, I don't know, farmer up the road, you know, a

few weeks later decides that, that, that she needs some Wasps

on her farm, then we can move the Wasps up there.

And I I think there is, I think there's a lot of innovation that

we can be doing. But I think it's, you know, as

wasp researchers, we can have some of these ideas.

We can help with the biology to advise and how to do it and work

with people. But we really need the interest

in the buy in from the communities who are involved.

So the past, you know, we can't, it's really hard for us to find

Ross pests, but you guys get Ross pests all the time.

Yeah, so. You're right.

Sort of, you know, bringing the researchers together with the

pest controllers and the farmers could be a rather lovely thing

anyway. No, no, it's just I think it's

been a really good, really good podcast and thanks for coming on

because thanks for. Having.

Me it is it is a conversation that needs needs to happen and I

thought well, because I reached out to you on Facebook, didn't

I? I messaged you on on your actual

post and I put and then you gave me e-mail then eventually you

put my e-mail in the spam folder then.

You replied. I don't know why you still

thought you were spams. I'm really sorry.

Yeah. No, no, I think it's fine.

It's just no worries. It's so do you want to promote

anything? Would you like to promote your

book? Have you got any?

Have you got anything you want to promote?

Well. I mean my book.

You can read my book Endless Forms.

Why we should love Wasps and I don't know.

I mean the hand to jam survey in the in I think it's still

running. I haven't looked at it for a

while actually, but if in the in the summer, next summer you're

you, I. Will be next summer.

I will be. Definitely just Google UCL hand

to jam. It's just a Google form at the

moment. I might actually by next year

have something a bit more fancy, but it's hand to jam is the key.

Hammer hammer jam and the theory is that they'll move from more

from a ham ham heavy diet to A to a jam heavy diet by the end

of the season. The way that the biology

changes. OK, in the pest control

community it's always a bit of a joke.

There is with how to get Wasps. You use a meme of stick jam on a

child. Oh yeah.

They don't mean it, joke. Recently, actually, yeah.

But yeah, no. But it's been really lovely.

Thank you so much for having me. Nice.

Thanks for coming on. You know that picture you sent

me, Is that another book or is is that your book in a different

language? Oh yeah, no, that's just my

book. So my book's been translated

into Russian, Dutch, German, and there's a Japanese 1 coming out

and they also translated it into Italian, Did all the translation

design, cover, and then the publisher, I don't know, I guess

they ran out of money, they pulled it.

That's very sad in Italian. OK, no, I just wondered because

you sent me that picture. I was like, I think that's the

book in different languages. Yeah, yeah.

And the cover of the hardback is like very different looking to

I. Noticed that one?

Yeah. That's again, it's a marketing

thing. I guess it's the publisher who

did that so. It it is a good cover.

It is. It is.

But anyway. Credit for it wasn't me.

Thank you for coming on. It's been, it's been good to

give you time up and hopefully loads of people are listening.

I'll get, I'll get some feedback and hopefully some someone might

say, oh, I had a similar experience like what you

mentioned, or we might get some feedback.

If I get any feedback, I'll get you an e-mail.

I'll let you know. I will.

Brilliant. All right.

Then thank you for your time. All right then, thank you.

Thank you. Bye.

Bye. Bye, Thanks for watching

everyone. That's been a fun show.

Thanks Steve and Jason in chat for watching and I'll see you

all tomorrow. I'm back tomorrow.

I've got Suan on from Give me a second.

Where's the thumbnail from Guardian Mosquito and Tick

Control in America. So that will be quite a fun one.

But yeah, thanks everyone and I'll see you tomorrow.

Or if you're on Spotify, please leave a review.

It will really help the algorithm.

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Thanks everyone.

Tonight's Episode