072:BRCGS Pest Control: Field Biologist Audits, Trend Analysis & Non-Conformances | Dan Lucas

0:00 right hello and welcome to pest perspectives episode 72 this week i actually have dan lucas on but obviously last week was meant to be him i got him and jim mixed up um last week was a good podcast it was all about bird control and subcontracting bird control it's quite quite fun and interesting it was uh yeah so thanks to jim he's done quite well so far all the podcasts do quite well but it's i because obviously you have peaks and troughs with um when people listen because it's it's obviously a summer and a lot of people are busy um but yeah if you're watching please press follow on facebook linkedin follow me please on our linkedin account uh if you're watching after the fact please press follow on spotify and press the review button it'd be great to get new reviews.

0:55 And on Apple Podcasts, I've only got one review. So come on, people, one review. I have over 100 people or more following the podcast on there. I have one review. Come on, get some reviews in. But hi, Jackie. Thanks for watching over on Facebook. So obviously, the podcast is powered by Powered Now. As you can see up in the top left-hand corner, I don't know what it is on the live feed, but they're a job management company so you can schedule your pest control jobs your tools your pest reports etc and schedule to the customers so it's quite good in that way but uh yeah check them out if you want the link should be in the description if not just google it and this week i have on dan lucas from css pest services hi sean thanks for having me on appreciate it yeah no worries that that is quite good because i normally look at the bottom of the screen to get that and you've just got your logo right there on the t-shirt i can't get it wrong there that's it right ricky cheers for tuning in mate so um how are you doing on this fine hot day yeah i've been struggling in the heat today been out doing field biologist visits this afternoon which nice hot warehouse packing area yeah it was a bit of a struggle I could see the rest of the workers sweating away as well so we're wearing it as a team Sean Do you have all the gear on?

2:29 No, like hairnets and stuff and all that I've obviously had a shave for the podcast not my best you know what I'm saying but yeah, big beards moved on earlier and it was all sticky and it was horrendous you didn't have a shave for me it's fine but yeah no thanks for coming on it's something new for you i know it's something you've never really done before so yeah definitely it's something i wanted to you know get involved with and have the opportunity to talk about stuff and move forward with it so yeah yeah no it's just just to you know i've had a lot of people on it it's just a natural conversation it's just that's all it is um sometimes people comment sometimes people don't most people usually say hello if they're watching okay they do so how did you get into pest control because it says on your linkedin it's a career career is over 10 15 years is it yeah yeah so um literally i was one of these people that could not stick at a job before i found pest control i was bouncing around sort of six weeks here six months was the max since sort of leaving school um and nothing really really spoke to me and then um sort of one day i was just flicking through youtube and i saw a day in the life of a

3:43 pest control the name of the company escapes me now i can't remember who it was but it looks so cool um out about in the field treating wasness you know that was normal stuff on the video anyway went straight onto um indeed and thought right i'm gonna give this a go applied at a few places and um was was pretty unsuccessful but then i got to go into css um and obviously no experience complete novice to the industry um they get they get me a chance and stuff and ever since then i've been you know absolutely wanting more you know every opportunity i could to sort of pick up any any additional training courses bits and pieces i've loved it it's it's the whole thing of you know we're surrounded by all these animals all the time and having that knowledge and when you're in the pub and stuff and someone goes oh I've got rats at home or whatever it's it's something that you know initially brings you together and gives you an opportunity to really you know connect with strangers as well as weird as that sounds you know that was it really but yeah so I joined them started as a service technician I think I was there six months and got me level two um let's preface this is that level two day course or is that level two three

4:54 day course it was the big one it was it was the the big one so i was i was there for the whole week you have to preface it nowadays because everyone when you say level two everyone just thinks the day course yes yeah yeah confusion it was it was the whole big long week going away staying in a hotel study that sort of thing um really you know got to meet some fantastic people there as well and that was great um and then sort of went into these these these BRC sites and salsa sites and bits that we're going to cover tonight from there um did four years as a service technician um and then progressed to the service manager um again love that because I've got to build decent relationships with with the rest of the technicians in the team and stuff and it was a whole different shift from from from being one of the guys to to the management side um but yeah I you know loved the team, would be up there in the lofts doing the sanitisation with them and stuff like that, you know, never asking people to do anything I wouldn't do.

5:57 And then, yeah, the opportunity arose to go for the biologist and I've been doing that now for two years. So, yeah, fantastic, really. I've enjoyed every minute in my career so far. You do seem very passionate, you do, which I like. You do seem very passionate about it, which is good, that is. hello to adam thomas on link on youtube thanks for watching press that subscribe button if you haven't already but you know that that's good to hear that is it's um you had a variety of different roles so definitely it's been an opportunity to really like see every aspect of it in terms of the person on site delivering service then the service manager who it's about volume of calls and getting those calls done and you know to a good standard but getting getting the volume of calls in and then the field biologist is sort of making sure that it's technically perfect and everything is done to to to you know these standards and adhering to it so it's been really i've seen all sides of the sort of service and um yeah i've loved every every part of it really yeah no that's good to hear so with with you when you started being another person here hello Paul Allman I know he messaged me earlier saying he was looking forward to this one but yeah there's a lot of people on stream there, there's a few people but yeah thanks everyone, press follow or subscribe whatever platforms you're on so when you were a technician were you just doing routines or were you like going to people's houses?

7:37 The good thing about CSS is it gives the opportunity to be all rounders so it was so obviously I was doing more works in the middle of the field I was doing domestic three-part riddance programs bed bug bed bug riddance rodent riddance that sort of thing yeah but then obviously the the commercial side I was I was much more into the food factories so right at the start I was that's what I wanted to do I wanted to be involved in the food sites I wanted to have the opportunity to you know look at the trend and get involved and luckily at the time um our biologist was really passionate and there as well and um so it took me under the wing and was like oh this is this is what you need to think about on these food sites and it was yeah i mean i still i still love going on a domestic there's nothing nothing um nothing bad about sort of going up and doing a three-part rinse program and getting that instant gratification from the customers finally had a good night's sleep or you know was worried about the wasps in the garden and that's great.

8:37 But it's that, you know, getting through an audit without any non-conformances and everything being perfect, you know, gives me a buzz as well. That's good to hear that. Yeah, you are passionate. It comes through, you can see. I like that. Hi, Ricky. Thanks for popping in, mate. Nice to hear a local Qualifier Press controller. um but yeah so when you made that step to service management manager yeah how did the other team how did the team treat you because obviously you were one of the one of the team then you're going to be kind of like a step up i think it's the same was it people weren't fussed or well because obviously you were with them weren't you naturally as a technician i sort of um was was a was a complete nerd so I'd sort of go away and read read the best manual of an evening and stuff like that so I'd already sort of taken a bit of a sort of not official team leader but team leader in terms of helping the guys if they had questions they'd come to me and stuff like that so I think it was almost like a natural progression to move into the service manager role um and and and really the guys you know great great bunch of guys really really you know um passionate as well wanting to do their stuff, wanting to do it well.

10:02 And, you know, we're all just pulled together as a team. I've never really had any confrontational in terms of people have an issue with me. I think I've always been fair. And as I said at the start, going up into a loft space to do those loft clearances when you're a guy short or something like that just shows that you're not expecting them to do anything that you wouldn't do. and if they're out at five o'clock at night, I'd go and join them and finish off what they were doing so we could all get home at a reasonable time and just stuff like that, really.

10:35 Yeah, no, that's good to hear that, because obviously you hear, yeah, I always like to hear it when they say I wouldn't ask them to do anything I wouldn't. Yeah. Now, on the hottest day of the week, would you like to go and join them on a loft clearance? I would definitely say to the guys, let's call it today. we have another field biologist in the building hello debbie wilson how are you doing hi debbie you know debbie yeah yeah yeah i do she's uh i'm i'm in colville and she's over i think outside of colville actually so somewhere there yeah but yeah no thanks for popping in debbie um so yeah that's that's good to hear then do you know we've um obviously you had steps to become a field biologist so what what were the qualifications you went through because obviously you go from a level two tech yeah award or certificate so then you've got to do your you go through your you know i'm presuming you've done your cat as well yeah yeah so um the first stage was a certified advanced technician and i must admit moving from that level two to that certified advanced technician scared the hell out of me because I was like am I going to be good enough am I going to be able to identify these species off of samples and all that sort of stuff um and that was probably the exam that I I studied the hardest for um and I didn't pass it first time I um I got I got two because again it was a three module thing you got two and you got to retake the additional one um and my treatment reports because back then

12:17 it was all it was all handwritten we were doing handwritten ones and all the time I thought I'd used the treatment report so it was sort of something that I put in the back of my mind and thought I know how to write a treatment report no no problems with that um so I focused really hard on risk assessments and and and um the identification side of it and everything like that and um yeah let myself down on the treatment report um but yeah sort of took the retake and got it sorted on the uh the second attempt as it were well it's nice to hear your honesty because i obviously debbie knows i i i had to retake my uh i passed my vertebrates first time i i failed my invertebrates and the and the health and safety but it wasn't by a lot that's annoying thing yeah it's frustrating when it's just there isn't it well you know what got me though a lot of it was i was learning about cockroaches having never done cockroaches you see i'd never done them up to that point but i now know i've done two cockroach jobs since two two that's it you don't get them a lot around there no no no you don't it's uh it's cool when you come across the stuff you don't get to do every day isn't it sort of like your cockroaches

13:31 or Indian meal moth or stuff like that. Yeah, it's cool. Yeah, no, so you obviously done your cat. Yeah. And then... So I got that under the belt. Then it was sort of a prerequisite for that was doing food safety level two and health and safety level two. Level three as well, isn't it? Is it level three as well? Yeah, so level three is for the biologist when you move on. Oh, sorry, right. Yeah, for the cat. So yeah, I've done the food safety and the health and safety level two, which you know is is is a good course to do anyway regardless of if you if you want to do additional exams and stuff just have that knowledge under the belt on that certificate um and then um yeah so then i did me level three which compared to the level two food safety the level three food safety is from a supervisor's point of view okay so it was much more about stop coming in rotation that sort of stuff which which was great um and then and then it was the field biologist exam which yeah it was uh it was tough I came out of it thinking I hadn't passed the first time but I did it was all right so yeah it was uh yeah it was good um sort of the the scenarios and stuff my hand was burning at the end of it because I was trying to write last down to the last second like everybody is in exams.

14:57 But yeah, it was good. Luckily, there was another man that was taken at the same time. He sort of was talking me off the edge before we went in for the exam because I was like, no, it's going to be a nightmare. I'd go through the flashcards, you know. But yeah, we got there. That's good too. So obviously, with the field biologist, because obviously you spell a lot of hard words. Because they want you to spell it the Latin way, don't they? Yes. Do you have to spell everything correctly or if you're just in the right area?

15:31 Yeah, so the spelling was the hard thing. The great thing on the identification aspect on the BBCA is that you get the main point for the common name and then you get half a point for the Latin name. So if you get everything right, then you can effectively get past that pass grade. but I mean sort of um every you know the the stuff that we use every day all I can advise is just get in the habit of you know when you're doing your treatment reports put brown rat and then in brackets use use the um use the scientific name just so that you you start reinforcing it because it's the easy ones you can take those half a point off and then you know you you're pretty much there but um there's some brilliant learning aids out there sort of flash cards for your scientific names and bits and pieces like that.

16:20 It's, you know, the resources are there. Because when I first took it, I was like, what do I need to do? Where do I need to go? What do I need to look at? I thought you made your own, didn't you? Yeah. It's, right, I did for the cat, for the field biologists. I got a set offline. But, yeah, it was... Beritas. Are they Beritas flashcards? Yeah. Yeah, I've got them as well. Fantastic. They are really good. I need to look at them more. yeah yeah it's um but you know it's it's really cool and and sort of it led me down a rabbit hole of like looking at where these scientific names come from and it was the the honeybee originate originates from uh greek mythology which is which is really cool uh so yeah no no it is it's um it is interesting a lot of this it's like i i've still got to finish it there was like an end to my knowledge i'm probably saying it wrong uh open diploma thing i haven't finished it yet but a lot of the stuff in it i was like baffled it's like you know flies in murders they can tell what time they die because the flies i was like whoa that is cool yeah that's the kind of stuff that they use insects for you know as an insect they can things like that it's mental flying flying insects and just just especially on on these audited sites and stuff just the insights you can get from doing catch tray analysis you can you can spend hours going into it and like thinking of sort of like what i mean sort of like waterborne insects if you're picking up mosquitoes it leads you to think that maybe the gutters are being blocked and the water is pooling up there and it's viral so yeah the stuff with the blowflies and uh the time in the body it's just the story

18:09 insects can tell it's fantastic they've been here longer than we have yeah that's what that's what they say i do i do say as well that the um when you when you when you get your field biology degree all of a sudden you're expected to know all the i think it's 27 000 different species of insects within the UK. You can know that No I don You got one set of species of a moth but there really is they reckon there thousands of species of each one and subspecies and subspecies and stuff they haven't found yet as well.

18:46 They reckon there's still a lot that hasn't been discovered. Yeah. Which is exciting. But yeah, you're supposed to know everything, are you? I wouldn't expect you to know that. it's it's mainly the technicians ring me up send me a photo or something and i'm like i'll get the key out bring it to the office we'll look at it together but yeah there's a lot of decent photo as well you have to take a decent photo oh yeah i mean that's that's that is half the problem isn't it is uh you know because they're so small zooming in and stuff it you i always prefer a physical sample for doing the ids i don't think you can do it any other way really no it is hard you're right yeah so after let's just like you don't have to say we get paid i just wanted to know you jumping from a level two tech to being a tech and then obviously this i'm not going to ask the service manager but for you going through all these qualifications and training to become a field biologist is the pay worth the result as well i know you love doing I know you love doing pest control and field biology, but was all the training worth it for the pay you get for doing field biology?

19:58 100%. I mean, it's difficult for me to answer because it is my passion. I'm not going to say Matthew Hamlet. You know what I mean? I'd probably do it for free, Sean, to be fair. Don't say it. Your boss might be watching. Oh, yeah, good point. but no no no that's good to hear it here it was worth it because uh i i can i can tell you you're a passionate person the most passionate i've seen in a while you are for that kind of so um do you get any like for field biologists is there any kind of perks you get or is there any bonuses for the job like any special things you get with being the field biologist i think as opposed to be a normal tech is that i think the the the perks um sort of it's when you when you're doing the actual inspections and stuff it's you're on site you know exactly the same as a as a normal technician apart from you know you have a you have much longer with the folder and then also while you're going around you have they have more time to go and have a look in that corner or go go off onto the mezzanine or really annoy the engineers by asking them to bring a ladder up so you can get access to the roofoid that nobody ever goes into or something like that.

21:17 So, I mean, the benefits of the day-to-day where you can actually, you know, have the time to do this in terms of going to the extra detail. But, I mean, the actual field biology is still boots on the ground, still still do still out there still going to site still building those customer relationships um you know it isn't all just sitting down drinking coffee and uh

21:47 enjoying it yeah that's that's that's good because it because i have heard that you know that that's what you do you get a chance to you're not on a lot of the time i don't know i imagine at some sites you get given a day to do a day to do it yeah or half a day that's what i've heard the standards half a day or a day on the site i think it's it's it's one of those where it takes as long as it takes if you if you if you're if you give yourself half a day i'm a big believer in you you're sort of looking and thinking oh i haven't really got time to do that um i think when it comes to field biologists they they they've got to go in with the thinking that it should take half day but if it takes all day at least they've done it properly you know and and to the to to the thing and um i mean 99% of the time you can get around it and it and there's no issues but then you know you you think hold on something under there get a bit more involved with that and you know that's that's it okay so when i originally put it on linkedin i put does anyone want to come on the podcast that does brcgs sites you know audited etc and here turns dan's dm turns up i was like yeah lovely to come on and uh so you do brcgs sites do you yeah yeah so um

23:18 I think we do, we have a handful of salsa, but the majority of that sort of work that CSS does is BRCGS, mainly version 9 food standard.

23:33 Yeah, so I've pretty much done that since I got my level 2 qualification. Obviously, I had that bit of handover with somebody who had their level 2 before me. um but yeah so i'd probably say over that it's been the majority of my life uh probably eight years on on doing those ones okay so with we've we've doing obviously the brc sites what's the best advice you can give like is it is it more take your time and make sure everything's checked and when you're going round is it more about i'm about a technician when you're doing a brc as a technician is it more about trying to look more and yeah the devil's in the detail as as a technician the the best piece of advice is is to know the standard is to take the time to either go to uh your end i'm you know lots of companies will have a biologist with these standards available or directly going to the site and just having a read of it before you do anything, just so that you have a full understanding of everything that the specification is asking.

24:49 And also communicate with the customer because, yes, they may be BRC, but they may also have other auditing standards and stuff like that. And just so that you can get everything right and the way that you need to do it, it's that communication at the start and fully understanding what's expected of you sort of moving forward. um then then the sort of the the next things come in terms of placing monitors what you're going to do with your baits and stuff like that um but yeah a good understanding of the standard and what the site wants in terms of if they've got any additional you know like organic as well or a lot of these brcs go hand in hand with another another specification okay okay so sorry i'll just look at reading the question on there so uh so you know what jason thanks for popping in um so so obviously with that um it's just case by case learning the standard but one thing i noticed when i read the standards it's really weird because you are supposed to be rbh level two award ain't you to do it yeah does not say it in the actual official standard i found it on a separate document that's a bit strange for it not to be in there it's like a competent person like yeah that could be anybody couldn't it yeah i mean also um sort of the version nine dropped the actual field biologist um qualification as well it says it's a pest management expert um that conducts the um the reviews of of the site in terms of position a bait station each area what activity is going on um i i i feel that as as an industry

26:40 we're sort of still continuing to go for the level twos doing the brcs and the sort of a qualified field biologist doing those those reviews um so it's not necessarily an issue that it's not in standard i think it's just expect you know it's what we we work to yeah do you think it's because i just had i just thought about this do you think it's not in there because it's a global standard potentially because yeah because if it's a global stand i believe it's global isn't it yeah but the rsph isn't qualifications just uk that would make sense then wouldn't it it was much broader term in terms of that yeah i read it and it's a global that might be why it's not in there because they're all different around the world they are i'll have to look into it and maybe i don't know i just noticed it wasn't in there but someone sent me a separate document that is basically what you need and and obviously it said rsph level two or you know bpca's version same thing i think i don't know it's pretty much all the same if you as long as you've got the level two not day course i get fed up for saying that okay because there's so much confusion and arguments over it, isn't there?

27:52 Yeah. Some people run well going, oh, I'm level two qualified. Are you? Yeah. And then you ask, oh, no, it's only the day course.

28:04 Hugh Radford's now in the chat. How are you, mate? He's saying technical business should be carried out by someone more qualified than techs. Yeah.

28:18 It's, yeah, yeah. It's the pest control expert that they're highlighting it. It is. I just thought it was interesting how they didn't actually have it in there. Level two is the best practice. Actually, Hugh's the one I got it off. There's a separate document he gave me. It's in that document. It's all in there. But I would like to get my hands on a BRC. Yes, at some point, I would like to. You never know. One day I might get one. You never know. It'd be fun. I think it'd be fun. yeah it definitely comes with its its challenges and it's you know a lot of fun to get involved and you know doing all your trend analysis and everything like that it's good fun so obviously with with these sites is there a standardized when you're writing up your reports is there a standardized way you should do a field biologist report or are they all different is it is there like a set standard where you do how you do a report for a field biologist i'd say on the brcgs is it or is it just as long as you you meet the minimum requirements it's fine so it has to be an in-depth inspection of of the areas according to the standards so it has to be you know go to each area do an assessment for pest activity hygiene housekeeping recommendations um proofing recommendations highlighting that all on the report and it also has to um review the current pest control methods in place um so effectively what what you do is go to each area you know there's a cupboard under the stairs that we haven't got any monitors in there's potentially something harboring in there let's let's look at adding an additional monitor in there i think as long as you hit those key points hygiene housekeeping recommendation area by area assessment of what

30:05 what the pest activity is, what's going on. I think you tick the boxes in terms of that in-depth review.

30:18 So there isn't basic, as long as you hit the targets, there isn't actually like an example of a report. I think the actual report itself, it just follows a natural flow. So effectively, you know, summarising what's happened since the last visit, then going area by area, taking your photographs because photographs speak a thousand words. And then linking that to the recommendations for each area, including your trend analysis as well, which has to be done at least annually or in response to an issue.

30:54 And and just linking that all together in in the report. It follows a natural flow. So also including some QA aspects of it in terms of, you know, looking through the folder. Was this there? Was that there? And including that in there. Yeah, I feel like effectively there are templates out there, but I think it follows a natural flow if you're thinking about the site and what the actual standard says in terms of what these reviews have to include. Okay, that's good to hear. And also, Hugh has said that nearly all the specs are on the UK pest controllers.

31:38 He means the Facebook group in the file section. So here's one for you. So what if you, because I used to have it on, I've heard the stories of Red Tractor where you've got a spec. so say for instance you had a brc site and an auditor asked you or whatever whoever it was for something obviously not as a field board or tech or both i don't know probably probably the company providing the press control for something that isn't actually in the spec have you ever come across that something yeah i think it i think it it comes up quite quite regularly in terms of that and i think it's um an opportunity to help your client effectively push back on on some of those bits um but obviously their their job is to review it to the specification um and um anything that's picked up could could be as a as a as a recommendation or uh you know something that they can do um and and and you know it's always always helpful to have a fresh eyes on on a pair of sites and anything that you missed and stuff like that but effectively um if you know your spec and you have your understanding of your spec and it doesn't feature on the stack you know there's opportunities there to help with a with a slight pushback in terms of um you know picking up something that's not necessarily as part of the standard i just thought i'd ask because you always get that one that asks for something they're not really entitled to i've had i've heard about it on

33:19 on red tractor sites asking for stuff that ain't even required and uh going back to them the person i knew went back to them and rang up rang red tractor up and said this is not in the spec and They dropped it in the end. They did. Because it wasn't in the spec. Yeah. No, definitely. It's being there to support your customer with pushing back and understanding the spec. As I said, it's the most important thing you can do on these sites is to read it, understand it, and have that communication with your customer.

33:52 Okay.

33:54 That's a good – it seems there's a theme, communication, with your customer. That's the best bit. is communicating what's going on.

34:07 It does. So, right. Are you there? I'm in. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. So, right. So, I want to ask you a bit. So, how do you build a pattern of life for trend analysis? And how does that compare to the catch trade? Sorry, the catch trend analysis trend. I've probably got that wrong. How do you do all that? I've never done it before. Okay, so effectively, you put all your monitors in your high-risk areas like you usually would, as well as considering in terms of product contamination and stuff, because obviously under the spec, we don't use any toxic bait unless we're treating in response to an issue.

34:50 so you put more than high risk area also take into account sort of palatability so any high risk areas or wet areas like that um probably put them down for visual inspection points rather than having a bait that can go moldy effectively in those areas um and then sort of they're fixed into position uh labeled clearly got all the um you know the stuff that's required on the boxes in terms of your your your your uh non-toxic monitoring blocks that you've chosen to use um and then effectively what you do is you go around and check them and include it all in the checklist so most people do this by having a checklist with a section to enter a date what result was in each of the monitors moving forward and then what what a biologist would do at that point is collate all that information annually if there hasn't been a problem or if in response to an issue.

35:48 And we've put all that into a graph to present, you know, what issues or where the peaks and troughs are for the activity. It can also translate into a bit of a hotspot map, which is quite helpful. Some softwares have that out there where it naturally sort of picks up how many times that monitor has been hit and gives you heat spots on the map. The most important thing in terms of that is probably also as well, don't just rely on the bait station for the take. um what i would do is i'd have that baiting point and consider the area immediately around it so yes there might not have been any bait consumption but there was some drop-ins next to this box and it is something that could be missed on um when it comes to the trend analysis because the physical bait station was clear there was no taking the bait station but there was some drop-ins next to it and it's capturing that you know in in terms of your in terms of your monitoring point checklist list would really helpful for a biologist in terms of going back and looking and creating those graphs and creating those hotspot maps and stuff like that.

36:54 But yeah, so it's also with the temporary monitoring equipment as well. Obviously that still has to be sort of fixed in position because effectively you putting it down with toxic baiting and to prevent that contamination of product you want that to be secured So you putting that in you making a temporary site plan and checklist to make sure that all the monitors on site and adhere to that standard. And then, yeah, again, make that separate monitoring point checklist. Make sure that you're gathering that trend analysis data because it all helps in the end.

37:28 When you sit down with your customer at the end of the year for a review, it's it's really helpful to to to have all this look this was the heat spots and also when you have to do your risk assessment your site specific risk assessment to analyze how many visits you're doing um whether what we're doing on sites working looking at the activity that we've had which forms part of it because all the visits for the year have to be done by risk assessment and having all that information at the end of it gives you something to to talk about in that meeting well that's that's really in depth to be fair i mean there's me thinking see well i've never done a trend analysis thing but i never thought about the rodent activity i i just associate it with flies the flies it's everything it's a whole story so every everything on site gets gets an um gets trend analysis every every 12 months or if there's an issue um the fly trend analysis it's fantastic you know after every service i'll do i'll do trend analysis for the fly units on site just purely because it's such an instant um indicator of anything going wrong so obviously your peaks in your uh blowfly something's dead somewhere or you know your your spi that you pick

38:42 up oh there's something going on um so yeah it's the trend analysis aspect aspect of it it seems scary but it's it's really just sort of looking at what activity we had looking for patterns in that activity and um and and and changing your approach moving forward to ensure that that doesn't happen again no it's a great explanation it really is it's uh you know your stuff mate you really do there's some really good answers you rather tell you yeah darren pierce on linkedin thanks for popping in mate previous guest but if you listen he done a drunk one on drain i did i didn't watch the drain one yeah did you but that was very popular that was i had a really long message of someone on on youtube over that one someone i'm guessing somebody worked for a national company and they were frustrated because the company they got in for rats didn't know about rats you know for the drains so yeah so it taught them quite a bit it did which was good so um so yeah no no it's been really insightful it has so um so here's one for you so if you say you go to a site that is brand new which i had this and they decided not to go for brc yet but like i was like what like when the one of the questions is what is the pest activity

40:04 don't know it's a new site what do you do then say it's a brand new building just opened and you've got no pest activity and it's all about pest risk risk what do you do when there is no data so i think i think i think if you're looking at the actual site um there's you know you haven't got that data but if you look at around the surrounding areas is there a railway line behind it is there a lake is there some field you can start building a risk um risk management a risk assessment based on the surrounding areas have they got a canopy is that canopy protected against birds nesting in the canopy uh obviously if it isn't they need a bird net underneath that um and i think like every survey um you go in and you're yeah as pest controllers we're naturally looking at those those things that we do without even thinking about it in terms of oh okay there's a field over there there's a animal feed plant you know on the opposite side of this industrial state and you can start building that risk assessment even though it's a brand new site um because you think right okay there's a chance there and obviously you know part of that initial survey you're doing a bit of a proofing survey um you go around you'll identify any potential gaps

41:18 and stuff like that you think hold on while that's open there is a chance that there could be some ingress here so i'm going to build that into part of my site-specific pest risk assessment okay now that is absolutely an excellent answer because i went to this they've decided currently not to do that they're just going to do normal but uh but yeah i just thought i'd ask because i didn't i didn't think but to be fair all the buildings on this estate they're all new as well so yeah i didn't think there's always things i mean google earth is a fantastic tool you know sort of zoom out look at what the surrounding areas are what what are those risks associated with the natural landmark i mean you know rail as i said railway lines you know we think okay vegetation back there there's going to be litter collecting you know nobody's going to be necessarily going down that so build that into your site specific risk and feature it in the document put you know the reason i think you need x amount of visits a year is because of the location of site there's a body of water over there or there's a there's a train line over here and that's how i'm going to therefore justify that this site requires this visit yeah great that's a great information

42:26 here but that is a good answer i just got a look um so yeah uh just checking that um with a chat kicking off any chat there has about standards there has uh what was what was that about it was about only that was it about um mns uh you wrote mns you put it here the only requirement is for bp uh bpca certified field board is the mns supplier yeah do you do any of them yeah do a few do a few and mns sites um it's yeah a whole different level up in terms of their specification is it i've heard i've heard of people that generally if mns does something they a lot of them seem to copy they set a trend is that right they're kind of i think obviously the brc regs came in as a way to sort of give that standard to everybody and then different businesses went well if that's a standard i'm going to do my business to this level well if that's the standard i'm going to do that to that level and then you ended up with all these tiers um and effectively you can be on a site where you've got these multiple um standards all all uh can be working against each other so that you're left in a box where all you can do is ask the mouse to leave politely um rather than rather than do anything but um again that comes

43:59 back to communication and and and just you know making sure that um you're aware of what those standards are like i said at the start yeah no that's fair like this how i'm not saying you've ever used them how has the ban or the effective block of glue boards on food sites because they're allowed on food sites aren't they yeah i think most companies have dropped using them just because the hassle haven't they or yes so i um did the course for kill jam um and i have carried out a treatment um since since the band's come in uh well not but the um the licenses and stuff the license that's it um and you know what i only think it's a good thing when it when it comes to reducing animal suffering animal welfare act all that sort of stuff because i think it's so it's so much at the forefront of our minds that we've got this license that we have to adhere to this license conditions that any room for any errors that used to occur is completely gone um and i think they have the place i think um they are they are a vital tool that we need in our toolbox and We don't want to go the way of a Scotland is in it that's completely banned now.

45:10 Oh, I heard about that. They reckon if you've got them in your van, you can get arrested and go to prison for it. So that's saying that even if you were a delivery driver, I think that's a bit extreme. A delivery driver wouldn't know he's got them. He wouldn't, would he? I mean, it needs to be coupled with the ban of the sale, doesn't it, really? At the moment, it's just the ban of the use, not the sale. but you know yeah it's it's something that again i think i think it'll probably go further with it but um at the moment in terms of making sure that they're being checked every two hours or have the constant monitoring and you know more robust site plans more robust checklists it's all just helps with animal welfare and you know making sure that we're limiting that suffering i mean at the day i've never i've never read well in fact i've never used them um but we obviously had some not many but you never want to use a tool even if you've never used it before because you never know monday like it's like effectively now if you get if you get a kitchen or a cafe that has an infestation now you cannot use glue boards to chuck glue balls down was the fastest way you've got to trap them or that makes us fall back more on integrated pest management doesn't it it pushes you that further to you know make sure that we're are we picking up all the hygiene you know the client's got to take more of responsibility for the hygiene proofing that you guys are you know i have got much better identifying i have got much better at telling them to do the proofing or pushing the proofing as as a service as part of the plan because i was never confident

46:59 of saying this is what you need but now i'm quite calm i don't get it all the time but i'm more confident about saying this reduces these access points and then you won't you know we can reduce that and then we can look at other areas but i'm more confident that comes over time because i know it's this part of integrated best management you've still got to obviously you've still got to sell that to the customer haven't you yes even though you're giving them a solution you've got to be more confident in how you word it definitely some people just think i was just trying to make money out of me when you well you obviously you want to make money as a business but you also want to make sure that you cut down all avenues for rodents to get to get in the building yeah or a cafe or whatever i mean it's the root cause analysis of of any pest issue is what we have to get to in terms of how it started in the first place and and and luckily when you sort of dealing with most most pests there is there is something that you can show to the customer in terms of let's say you know rats coming in through an airbrick hole there's there's gnawing there's smear marks there's there's evidence that you can demonstrate to a customer that this is the root

48:08 cause of what's what's what's occurring um so i mean demonstrating that root cause analysis and getting them to buy into um what what what what our industry is more about is is about you know working together rather than you know just chucking poison around everywhere yeah it is it is better that way but obviously it sometimes i've just filled a hole because they're not going to do it not going to pay for it i've just sometimes i've just done it you know you shouldn't do but you know they're not going to pay for it or they know they're not going to do it sometimes yeah and that's the problem isn't it because you think even if you put it in the long if this hole is sealed.

48:54 Yeah, even like when you pull it on there so that you can choke and see. But sometimes it don't come for 18 months. It don't always work, does it? I keep putting this on here, but it doesn't work, does it? No. But that's, again, if we link that back to the BRC stuff, obviously part of the standard is making sure that they react on to recommendations in a time. But that's actioned. I know it has to be actioned or they can get in trouble, can't they? Yeah, definitely. So you can conform as part of the non-conformance for them, which is great.

49:25 I mean, recommendations have to be reasonable and practical. I think if you give them something that's insane, you know, you're not necessarily going to get that work. But, you know, that is one of the things that I do like about these audited sites is, you know, a hole needs filling and 99% of the time you come back around and it's filled and it's sorted. um so yeah that is that is an added benefit you know compared to your your other stuff really no it is because they they basically have to do what you effectively have to do what you say or they're going to get a non-conformance yeah well yeah definitely highlighting you know vegetation overgrown and bits proving and and obviously canopies as well as is a big one that features on the standards in terms of making sure they're protected against birds nesting and roosting in there and you know rapid rollers make sure they're not leaving the doors open all the time because birds can fly in or pvc strip curtains um so you know make sure that as we're going around we're looking up as well because it does form part of the the brc standard it's specifically for birds funny thing you should funny you should have said that that's actually actually what that side went to look at they're going for normal that's actually one thing that i says why didn't you get these doors sorted yeah pigeons they had to get someone else to sort that but i had them in i says you need the curtains and um yeah they said we should have done that straight away yeah but um yeah it's it's kind of it's just well i'm getting a guy get him in we're gonna sort it

51:04 it's all being ordered and all that but uh hopefully i get it but uh that was going to be a BRCGS site. They've not made their mind up. But you can't give a price if they're not going to tell you the detail, can they? I suppose it's like anything. It's a step up. I mean, they have to get operationally up and running to get to that point where they feel confident to pay for that audit and get that audit done. So, I mean, there's always that room to say, right, this is your standard. but if you want to upgrade your service later on, it's X amount extra.

51:41 And then you can get it going, get ball going, but you also have the back in mind like, okay, if we're going to go BRC, it's this extra. Yeah. But I mean, you need to know exactly what they're going to be selling everything. I knew nothing about what they were going to be. Can you give us a prize in case? So they can't really. I need to know exactly what you're going to be doing. because it's like chucking them lumber out there it might be right it might be wrong yeah i just go for normal price instead and obviously that that risk assessment that you do to establish the visits and stuff the site-specific risk assessment um effectively you have to change that every time a process changes as well or there's a different risk um you know if they suddenly put a production line and there's there's voids in that machinery um and there's that chance of product falling down into that making conditions conducive for store product insect breeding etc you have to include machinery inspections in that in that risk assessment so yeah i i get the struggle mate 100 oh yeah yeah i was really excited i was like getting all this help from people and and he was like well it might be then he i didn't i didn't give me no detail but i can't really write anything i can't give a proper price or anything like that it doesn't matter well uh so it's one for you um a few people have asked me this question what do you think a text what should be in a text bag should it should be a standard of what a tech should carry say brc so obviously a torch obviously things like that definitely so what what i would say before before you even got

53:21 there is to consider the bag that you're taking in so what i would do is have a second bag because you've got to think about contamination of product as you're going into these sites so effectively where you where you've been what you've been doing and stuff before is on the bottom of that bag and you know you're entering these food sites you know very strict hygiene the whole the whole changing procedure you know you're putting clothes on coveralls before you go in um so having that that second bag that's specifically organized for your brc sites you know you're keeping that clean you know you know you know where it's been because effectively they've got to have allergen tracing and stuff like that and you know you've been to a peanut butter factory for example yeah to put that down you're taking that bag into a non-peanut butter site and non-nut site yeah so i'd be thinking about that before before necessarily going in um but yeah so just a general service lots of non-toxic bait because obviously it's non-toxic until there's an issue so obviously just to keep that palatability of bait up and making sure would you say sorry to jump in there with with non-toxic bait would you say it's better to to put that the non-toxic bait

54:33 in a plastic bag uh i wouldn't because it gives us a technician almost like a uh and it's an excuse not to check the bait itself and then you'll lead to like secondary infestations and you might end up with some frass inside or a store product insect inside that bag because you think okay that's protected it's protected from the air nothing's getting into that bag no damage on the top and then that bait goes unpalatable and then you never ever get a take on it and you think oh okay there's just nothing going on there but if you you know if there's a wet area or if there's risk of that bait getting contaminated or becoming unpalatable i would suggest personally going for a visual inspection point instead instead of putting a putting a bait in that point um so what i would evolve for me necessarily is putting a i want to a label on the wall to say this is a visual inspection point number one a date labeled before so you can demonstrate to an auditor that you actually are going into the area and checking it you dating off as you go and then you got that opportunity to do that that visual an inspection in the area take some photos add that to the report or um you know feature that in your um uh report section um so necessarily the whole thing of bagging baits

55:52 i i personally don't think it's of a huge benefit and also you've got other options as well if it's if you're getting slugs eating it all the time you could go for a you know one of the the plastic baits i don't know if i'm allowed to say product names and stuff so i'll keep going like this um but yeah so like a like a am i allowed to say product names if you want i'm not so like i don't know um the nara blocks and stuff like that where you know the slug's not going to get in and have a have a chunk of that um you know so just think about what we're using in the areas rather than sort of going to that bag and giving yourself that thing and thinking the bag's not damaged so the bait's good um just making sure that we're we're keeping it as palatable as possible so if we do get anything in we're competing with the products that they've got on the racking and the shelves and stuff like that oh yeah that's really good like that could you see what he's just put yeah i saw that never tried it it was just an example i'm sorry but uh but yeah this it's a it's a good point about about right um i just thought i'd ask the question about being bagged or not bagged so yeah it's a good point um yeah obviously back to the the bag and stuff um you know decent set of monitors

57:10 um again reducing reducing contamination risk are the boxes grease-free are they nice and clean replace them as you as you go keeping it you know looking professional audit ready um i agree but slugs won't eat it which was really they won't eat it yeah so you know that's i think i think generally in my experience and this is only my person people bag it when there's more likely and slugs are going to damage the baits and stuff like that um so yeah um plenty of monitors so keeping your stuff uh nice attacks obviously anchoring pads um to keep your monitors secured into position um and all in terms of uh wire and stuff all your fixing materials to make sure you can stay plenty of labels um obviously they're having cleaned down things are happening between visits labels do become you know illegible so you want to be able make sure you've got the kit to to do that without having to keep back nip backwards and forward to the van um we probably also want to think about what we're going to do in case there's an issue so we want some breakback traps in there um and we also want to probably consider what we're going to put on those traps because again thinking about the allergens thinking about the contamination

58:32 risks you want something that's not um you know something like a provoke or something like that that's therefore going to... Them little plastic ones. I don't know what they're called. You can put them in traps. They're the plastic ones. Definitely. They've got scent in them or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't think of one. We need to have some of them. We probably have to have got some of them in stores. Yeah. Also, you want... Are you saying? Yeah, so Killjam do a really good AF key. If you've got AF keys where it's half brush and half thing, give the monitors a good clean down, clean the inside of it um you know if if if there has been a little bit of you know frass at the bottom of the box in terms of you know something's been in there make sure you're getting it all out clean it out um you know it's just got to be you've got to leave that site with it being all it ready every time because you don't know what customer visits they're going to have or you know if that if that you know hopefully you've had that communication where you know the brc is but it's just got to be bang on and ready ready to go so that you you can sleep at night so with that that's from a tech so what would what do you carry in your field biologist bag what do you carry on site round with you so factory pen obviously uh metal detectable pen which is something a technician should have as well which i forgot uh detectable pen yeah so a factory pen basically again you you don't want to be taking in something that could effectively be a contaminant that they won't be able to pick up so plastic pens or pens with lids or anything that you could drop as you're going around and that could end up in

1:00:11 the product you don't want to do so you get a factory pen they're usually blue but they can be different colors and stuff like that um and add that in metal clipboard again for the same reason you don't necessarily want well you don't want wood in there or anything like that if you're digital do you do it after do you write it up digitally after so what i do is i take a clipboard and pen and I make all my notes as I'm going around. And I've developed a weird shorthand that nobody else can understand.

1:00:39 Read my notes afterwards. But I just go area by area, make my notes, do that sort of stuff. And then, yeah, and then basically I spend the time afterwards because I have to do all the trend analysis anyway. So I have to take photos of all the checklists, upload that onto an Excel spreadsheet, make the graphs on that side of it. um so i don't necessarily i can sit there and do it in each area but you know the more time i spent writing reports in the areas the less time that i have looking and and getting involved in what's going on um and you know my wife hates it but i will sit of an evening and then type the reports off but you know it's it's it's easier it's easier to you know how just have your clipboard your pen make your notes take take your photos as you're going around have your torch in your hand um you know and um you know uv torch is always very helpful as well to have your pocket all your bank keys um and and stuff like and stuff like that really yeah i just thought that's what the difference was with a with a field biologist bag because i've never never asked that one i've had a couple on so far but i've never asked them that question you know about bags i mean that's the general inspection but there's always a there's always a bag in the back the car for in terms of if I find something to prevent that technician having to do that initial call out I put some control measures in place I get a program a treatment plan in place and then they sort of act it out after that and add their bits to it that you know that collaborative working

1:02:08 technician and field biologist lids on your pots he's just put lids on your pots i don't even know what he means i need expert expand on that i don't know what he means there i thought you might know but you don't either he'll he'll comment in a minute um yeah lids on the pots go on hugh tell us what you mean lids on the pots but no it's it's been a good i've been a i've learned a lot so far but i might have to listen to this back because i tell you i don't know if you're going to listen to this back but even though i'm an experienced podcast uh i don't like listening back to a whole podcast of myself i'm more used to it now but you you actually i'll never be able to listen to this but You actually sound different to what you think.

1:03:13 Yeah. Put lids on your non-tox pots, et cetera.

1:03:22 Did you get what it means? Non-toxic. It's in a box. The last thing you want is to kick over your... Oh, I get what it means. So, yeah, obviously when you decanter your bait, you put it into a tub, you've got a lid on, you've obviously labelled that as the product that's in there because, again, it's that contamination risk. That's got to be in the back of your mind is thinking. Wow, right, get it. Sorry, Hugh, got you now, mate, sorry. Let's just put that so the video can see it. There and there.

1:03:55 There we go, yeah. There we go.

1:03:59 Let's have a look. Yeah, but no, it's been an interesting podcast it has. do you only do css audits or the techs is that what you do yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it's i've got i've got a good team behind me you know they're um they're they they don't get it 100 right all the time but they're very very receptive to the sort of the qas they come out with me and you know we're we're putting out some good stuff now that's nice so you will if you find issues tell them you won't just yeah 100 i mean it's a hot part of it as well is that that qa aspect of it in terms of i'll go through the folder make sure that everything's present in the folder they've filled out the checklist correctly and there's human error i mean they're doing these checklists and they might have missed the last page and you know then you can go through the treatment reports and like fill that out for them and stuff like that so we do an audit but i always highlight it to them in terms of let's get this this these bits fixed here and there um so i do a whole paperwork section so it'll go from right from the service outline through to certificates and um safety data sheets making sure they're all they're all um correct um well you thought it was well you thought it was a flower bed oh wow so yeah you do that you do the

1:05:28 work through that so I'll break it down aspect by aspect for bits here and what they're really good at is making sure that it's fixed and then I'll go monitor by monitor and obviously I don't necessarily check every monitor on site I sort of check a percentage in each area most of the more time I'll focus on what's going around it but again I make sure that everything's labelled correctly they're anchored to the wall that the baits are nice and clean and tidy they've changed rates regularly and so yeah they every time they get a they get an email afterwards just highlighting any bits that i found and um and and yeah they they they come back to me and say yep all sorted or all bit but it's just down to human error it's not it's not um yeah yeah yeah yeah we're not robots are we no yeah so obviously with your tool bag you have do you have a nice little magnifying glass as well uh yeah i have i have a little lens um and some sample pots um it's yeah so collect things afterwards um if i can idea then then brilliant if i have to go through a key you know always communicate with the customer found this not 100 sure but i will get an answer for you and come back to you no yeah that's i suppose

1:06:47 I suppose they like that. That's transparent, transparent. 100%. I mean, as I said, it's all about communication and just making sure that, you know, it's clear what you're doing and what's happened on the visit and stuff like that. And you also sort of, obviously, you have your non-shattered tubes and stuff, and even if something happens with an EFK or you lose a bit of something or something goes missing, it's really important that you just go and communicate that, you know. no that's good that is because i imagine that not every well i suppose with bs vb i'll say they have to read your report don't they i'm gonna say on normal sites a lot of them don't read them yeah no it's it's so they have to do quarterly audit um doesn't feature in the um the pest control section it's a it's higher up in the in the standard um so pest control is ordered to do quarterly so that would be it's a task buster thanks for popping but yeah so it's just a case of i've totally lost my train of thought now what was i saying um so you yeah you lost it as well yes i don't know i don't know i can't no i've lost oh yeah so we talked about lenses uh then it was i don't know mate we'll move on to the next thing that's it that was it I've nipped into a nine-mile man Dan glad to do my job yeah you derailed it you derailed it you derailed it at the end that's fine I think we covered the majority yeah it's been a good podcast and I've learnt a lot and I hope a lot of other people have learnt stuff as well it's been a good experience from the first one I've really enjoyed it thank you Sean for having me to have you back on for some kind of round table in the future.

1:09:02 I do them every so often. I used to do them once a month, but I'm going to do them every few months. So I might invite you on one of them because you're very passionate about it. Definitely. You know your stuff big time. Thank you. All our guests do, but it just shines through with you. It does as well. So it's good to hear that. And Hugh's saying thanks, chaps. So before I say the goodbyes, I've been asked to mention, Right, CPD, I haven't mentioned it in ages. If you live to British Pest Register, Sean Mooney's scheme, simply give me a day or two.

1:09:39 I normally do it the day after. If you go to CPD training, I put up a little quiz of four to five questions. Something Dan said within the podcast, question-wise. I actually get AI to do it for me, the quiz. But it gets it right. I check it. Get your point and then you get your point. It'll be every one point probably for that. And then if you were to BPCA, just self-register it with a BPCA. And sorry, if you are with Basis Prompt, I have tried. I sent an email on the 8th of May listing the podcast and what people learned, etc. But so far, I have had no communications back.

1:10:23 So I don't know if I'm getting any points for this podcast for Basis Prompt this year. but I have tried. So I'll have to see if I can send an email saying, did you get my email? Saying that, I left them last year. I moved over to the British Press Register. And I sent them an email saying that I left in October. I gave you notice and they emailed back apologising because I gave them the exact date so they could go and find the email. Because they were sending me a bill saying it's overdue. I recently got another one saying it's overdue.

1:11:01 So they want my 80 odd quid. I said, I've left you. I've left you. I've got to ring them if I can get through and tell them, cancel that. Not a member. I'm not. But yeah, it is hard to get hold of them. And Jason's saying he hasn't got his ID card off basis prompt or the British press register. All right. Okay. To get on to them then. You want to message Sean, Jason, and say, where's my card? But, yeah, so I have to mention it because I'll be honest, I haven't mentioned how you do CPD in a while.

1:11:39 They're all on there. There's 70-odd podcasts on the British Press Register if you wanted to go through a load of the quizzes or ones you've listened to and did the quizzes. There's a load of points there if you want. I'm like clockwork. They're all there apart from one I delete, one podcast that i was deleted that was deleted the name shall remain anonymous as to who that was but i think you all know i'm kieran well i i kieran so um but yeah they're all up there for you for you to get your cpd with but um yeah so thanks dan it's been good to have you on I might pick you up for another podcast at some point I enjoy talking to you but yeah thanks Jackie as well for watching and Jason and Paul it's been very popular and Adam all these names great podcast he put thanks higher up all these messages great podcast there we go So, yeah, so thanks, everyone.

1:12:48 Next week, I've got on something different. I've got a lady from a project in New Zealand from Wellington called Predator 3 2050. It's a project where they aim to, obviously, Wellington is more urban, wipe out the rats, Stokes, etc. On scale. On scale, so they're actually actively dropping traps into people's gardens. They've got teams of people on scale. So I've got her on next Tuesday. 8pm, so that'll be fun. First New Zealand guest. It is live. I think it's like 6 or 7 in the morning where she is, but she's coming into work early to do it.

1:13:33 She is. So that would be good. But yeah, so thanks, Dan. Do you want to give anyone a shout out? or plug in Just hi to the guys if you're watching yeah There you go I would have said hi to Lawrence but he messed me up Nine are getting more people now the podcast is ending Oh wow six people on Facebook and three people on YouTube I didn't realise it did that but this podcast will get loads of views after it's always just quite well it does but yeah so thanks everyone if you still are lying for a minute and I'll just say I am the podcast but yeah thanks everyone and I will see you all next week thanks everyone