083:Bed Bug Treatment: Are We Getting It Wrong? | Leah Darby

0:00 Hello and welcome to Pest Perspectives episode 83.

0:07 It's the second one of me not doing it live. I'm trialling it. I'm not saying I won't ever bring the lives back, but it's just something I'm trialling. I might still do some live ones, just playing about with it at the minute. So, hello on Tuesday. Hello to the future. so this week i have lee darby from complete bed book solutions how are you doing yeah i'm really well how are you good i'm okay cheers thanks apart from the microphone the dji microphone not not working but uh this is what podcasters are supposed to use you see yeah i just thought always clever using one of these that all the influencers use on youtube on on on facebook i'll get it i'll get it sorted though i will but um so i wanted to get you on christy a popular topic within the industry and in general the pest control industry especially on this podcast the uh people seem to love talks about bed bugs in any in any way shape or form recently it's it's been a big talking point it has so i thought i'll try and get you on so for anyone who doesn't know your background and how you got into pest control how did you get into pest control so um so we so complete bed bug solutions is a fairly new uh company we have another we have a pest control company as well called ben's bugs pest control and um ben started the business back in 2018 um we used to work for a company who used to subcontract pest control workout um and i'll leave it there yeah that's fine it's fine yeah it won't take too long to work out who that

2:05 was i had that happen to me recently on the wasp nest it's uh wasn't that company yeah it was a company that likes to advertise their local love to pretend they're me yeah i know i went to do the job properly yeah it wasn't the company i know who you're on about it wasn't them and like them sorry carry on yeah so so we started out uh doing that and then one day yeah ben said i'm i'm gonna of go and get qualified and um we set the business up in 2019 2018 2019 um and then over that time i still had a full-time job i was still working in the charity sector um but supporting sort of like admin advertising you know all the all the back of house stuff really um and then i used to go and help Ben on bed bug jobs when they were sort of bigger jobs he needed help with the steaming side of things I would be roped in to go and help and I think that's where the interest started for me um then in 2023 the business was getting bigger and busier and it was it we was sort of in between a bit of a rock and a hard place we was either going to employ somebody to as a technician or i was to get qualified and and and help out um so i did that um scott qualified in the 2023 and it worked out really well because ben was able to go and do

3:36 things that he enjoys doing so rats mice squirrels bird work so that's his favorite kind of work is it yeah he he likes all that sort of investigating drainage side of it and you know i don't like that side of it i much prefer the insect side um and naturally bed bugs was a massive part of that so every day i was out doing bed bug work and i think it just sort of sparked a bit of an interest in it and the more i looked into it the more i got some training started talking to different people um and then i had some training at the beginning of the year with richard nailer yes and it was something that i came home from that training and i'd met sarah actually at that training too we both put it together and i said to ben i think there's a real opportunity here to really specialize in in bed bug management and that's how then complete bed bug solutions came off of the back of Ben's bugs okay and since then it's sort of we've just got busier and busier and we were naturally busy with bed bug work anyway but I think because we I Ben doesn't get involved in the bed bug work because he doesn't like it they completely dedicate my time to solely bed bugs so i think it allows for more specialist work more you know not just your

5:08 domestic customer calling up saying i've got a bed bug issue but actually being able to go into different environments such as housing associations their homes the homeless sector we do so much work within those sectors because they're you know really susceptible and vulnerable to their bug issues so that's you know where where we go where where we do most of our work really oh that's good i've i'm not asking that question you you rolled into that question sorry i haven't asked it's fine it's all related explains it well that does i'm just putting it on screen because as you were talking i was like that's exactly what i was gonna ask yeah so so yeah no that that's really good because because i haven't been to that to me i haven't done housing association bed bugs etc and i know there's a whole list of different rules though isn't there you know how you know generally correct me if i'm wrong you know how when you give out prep work and tell people what to do i've been told that not saying i poo you can't tell people how to live like i've been told that you've got to be very careful and i think that's so i think especially when it comes to housing associations and you're working with vulnerable people it adds its own challenges i did a post

6:32 about that uh last week i think um how how difficult not only working i've been working on one in london and it's a 10 bed complex needs housing association okay so they've been battling with a bed bug issue for two years and they've had countless of insecticide sprays that haven't worked and they've been residents have been moved from one room into another into another and it's contributed to this all 10 rooms having an issue so naturally when you're in those environments that are complex already adding a bed bug issue on top of that that's not going away you are you know it's a it's a real challenge at times and I think that's why bed bugs I believe should really be seen as more of a specialist service than sort of just a general pest control service you could probably say that for every pest but I think with the issues that bed bugs bring physically and mentally psychologically i really think that having extra training um extra knowledge around the behavior of a bed bug really plays into your advantage when you were in situations and and i'm working on jobs like that yeah i mean it must do because it's it's obviously not easy because it's just a thing where you've also got to be careful even though you have got bedposts you've got to be careful what

8:09 you say i think you like not to offend them yeah well and going back to your question about telling people how to live you you can't but you have to and i think that's why having support workers sort of really involved in in these conversations because you're going to a lot of effort a lot of time a lot of money at times is being spent and whilst you can't tell people how to live you have to be given advice in order to get the best possible outcome of a treatment exactly it's like what you're saying you can tell the support workers if you want to have this completely nailed you know finished you're gonna have to help the situation change we're just gonna you're just gonna go around in loops isn't you yeah and i think they're sort of across the sector there is sort of a generic uh pre-treatment list that you know lots of pest controllers sort of advise before going into their bug job.

9:12 And sometimes I think that's not always necessary.

9:17 I always survey my jobs before I do a job. I always go and have a little look. So it gives me, there you go. It gives me, it gives me a opportunity to see what's in front of me before I can propose a treatment plan. Yeah. lots of people oh you've got to put your all your all your clothes in your wardrobe in bags and wash them and and really sometimes it can it can just add so much stress on on top of an already real stressful situation yeah when sometimes it's not required okay if you've got if you've got a wardrobe outside of a bedroom or you know fairly far away from the bed and you're talking maybe a low to mid level infestation they're not going to be crawling to the to the wardrobe nesting in there crawling back out to the bed to feed they're going to be in a real close proximity of of the bed space yeah so there is some misinformation i believe around sort of pre-treatment and i think it's important that you know surveys are carried out first because otherwise you can just add so much work and so much stress to an already probably very stressed out customer yeah i mean do you do you obviously because it takes you time do you charge for surveys let's add a caveat here that you go there yeah you've done your survey this client clearly hasn't got bed bugs surely you should be paid for your time so you would then wouldn't you so it's really interesting you say this because it's a question i get a lot yeah now i'm having

11:11 an initial phone call with somebody yeah and i'm asking some real relevant questions and that gives me an idea if it's somebody that hasn't got any bed bugs or has got bed bugs so i had a customer at the weekend called me older lady I've already I've already um had three other surveys carried out and they've said I've got no bed bugs oh and I can't find any and you know and I've never seen a bed bug so I'm like okay so the likeliness is that my time not wasted but I'm not going to get any treatment out of that I would charge in that scenario okay if I've got a customer who sent me photos or videos who say i've seen their bugs i've you know i've been trying to deal with it myself or i've already had another local pest controller come out and i then i wouldn't charge because it's very likely that i'm going to get further treatment out of that if that makes sense oh it makes sense i mean everyone has their you know ways and means of doing business everything all businesses are different they are um we got called all sorts a few years ago went and told the lady um basically couldn't find a single bed book nothing and her daughter of polo rang and apologized i'm so sorry called his charlatans

12:40 I only charged £80 plus he said to her daughter if we were a charlatan we could have just charged you £500 and be gone and carried out a treatment that you didn't need exactly we knew it was what's it called what's the one where they think they've got it I can't think of it parastosis oh yeah yeah um because she said kept saying to me you could see all them books all over my face couldn't you and i said i said you know you try and be as professional as you can't can't see anything so um it's hard when you get ones like that and um and they bring you bits of dead skin and things like that so this lady i went to yesterday she had a windowsill filled with everything but a bed bug on it okay there's a spider a flyer a bit of leaf that had come out from through the window and it really was it was an array of sort of things that she'd collected thinking it was anything bed bug related and it wasn't um i did however find a woolly bear and when i lifted the bed up i found a woolly bear under so she was trying to show me some bites which I couldn't see but again everybody shows up very differently when they're when they're eating or have a reaction um so yeah I did sort of reassure her that there was definitely no bed bugs present and um it may have been a carpet beetle or woolly

14:20 bear that's maybe been given her given her an invitation um but they they can be very challenging situations when you are dealing with a customer who is convinced that there is something crawling that they're being bitten by something it's it's it's a really difficult one it is because sometimes it's also that um what's it called there is a static thing you can get static can't you yeah it can also look like bites and it's just static there's no bugs you can get that as well and women of a certain age when when we're going through a menopause we can have a reaction that makes you itchy um makes your skin feel funny and that can be associated with being bitten by something or something crawling across the skin and you know we are i've had a few of those over the last few months and um you know it's yeah it can it's not always bed bugs but i think your mind always goes to bed bugs so obviously with that experience and knowing that you can say that but i imagine as a man if i was to say that i'd probably get reported or something i'm not you know i wouldn't get away with saying that no it's a real sensitive topic and it's it's even even when you're talking about um you know delusion delusional parasitosis it's it you have

15:46 to be really careful in how you deliver that because you don't want to say oh you're mad you know there really isn't anything there yeah so it's it's really and I do I do think and I said this on the other podcast you know as women as females we are able to deliver and have those conversations very differently and I look at myself and I look at Ben Ben wouldn't be able to have those conversations especially with women of a certain age um and i probably would assume most men wouldn't feel comfortable in having those conversations i wouldn't know no so as as females and i think we can deliver that uh that in a very very different way and it be received in a very different way as to a male having those conversations no you are right because it's why it's worthy plus the fact it's coming from a female and they can relate obviously more to it they just yeah if like not not saying it would but it could come off a bit i don't know sexism or something like that you could they could say that but like i thought of it because the yeah the bed bug queen told me sarah yeah and i was like i couldn't get away with that and she's like no you probably you wouldn't be able to get away with it.

17:07 Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes it probably is that, but you just can't say it. Yeah. You can't. Yeah, it's tricky. It's difficult. It is. Well, I would say, though, you have gone the right way, obviously saying it's a specialist subject. The way you've set up, I looked at your website, it's very good. Thank you. I think you've actually, like, if you look up your company, you look the part. I know you are the part obviously but website screams bed bug professionals um this is the only thing we do so it should give people more trust that you know what you're doing because that's all you do day in day out is deal with bed bugs and see your books so in that way you setting setting uh complete bed books apart from the other company probably I think you'll probably really busy with work all the time it is and yeah i think i think as a you know from people i speak to in the industry you know pest controllers and like sarah you know who only do bed bugs i think collectively everyone is saying bed bugs has just sort of increased dramatically over the last six to eight months um everybody i speak to yeah is absolutely chock-a-block with bed bug work please bring them my way i live down there you're in london i'm down in rutland i don't know if you've ever heard of a small county in england so 20 but 30 minutes from leicester 30 minutes from peterborough do you go into those sort of city centers no it's not really worth it because the companies locally can just nail you on whatever you do it not it not worth it to us it not uh we get we get enough work anyway but i do i do enjoy having i do now because i didn i used to do the old you know you spray chemicals etc but now i tried the

19:20 old chin chicks i feel much much better in how we deliver it um i haven't got to use the steamer yet but do you have one i have a steamer it's not the one that you have it's a steamer it's not at that level yeah i don't want to fully invest in it yeah it's expensive doesn't in case i don't get any more work yeah absolutely it's expensive but if you're using it every day and you're getting your money worth money's worth then i would automatically start getting tons of calls for it i would definitely buy one straight away because i know someone told me well mates he's he's just set up and he he said he had to buy the um he had to buy the carter one because he said he couldn't get hold of a pulte he reckons they're all sold out or this the manufacturer haven't he literally drove to one emv to buy one the carter version yeah that one emv is selling the carters because i one emv is only down the road from us so we're in there all the time and i did ask about it because I saw it was new.

20:25 I've always used a Pulte. The only thing is, is obviously if anything does go wrong and you send it back to the manufacturer, they have to source them parts then from Italy. So it can take a while to be repaired sometimes. Okay. I've always had a really great service from Pulte, always. I bet you, though, you have a backup one. I'm not having it. I bet you've got to. You know what? I actually don't. Oh, okay. I actually don't. know and i probably should i've come up short once when it needed to be sent it broke it broke on me and i think it just been overworked and um i we we work closely with another pest controller in in in the area and yeah i ended up borrowing his his steamer thankfully he was very kind to let me use it um that's nice but yeah they're they're great bits of kit if anyone is thinking about investing if you are getting enough bed bug work to warrant it.

21:24 Yeah, no, that's fair. I mean, if I have been trying to get the work done, you know, I've updated the website, done everything, and I kind of show up on there. But if I did suddenly get a burst of load of them, it'd be warranted then. Yeah. But one thing I did see on your LinkedIn earlier was this. You do training for staff on how to look for bed bugs. now is that just what to look for or do you actually go through the whole hog of describing the bed bug biology and everything is it like a proper little course so we normally allow sort of like it's like a couple of hours so it's not anything too intensive because i also have to remember that people aren't as passionate about bed bugs as maybe what i am so i have to be really careful in terms of what that looks like when we deliver training but the real essence is i think because we work we do a lot of work in the homeless sector housing associations care homes hotels yeah um when it's really really important that people who are working closely in these environment are aware of early signs of infestation yeah um so we offer it but it's very basic it's sort of what does a bed bug look like um we bring in sort of like little um resin that's got the actual dead bed bugs in for people to have a look so because people again don't understand the size don't realize that they're visible they think they're sort of really minuscule that you can't see them um we also bring in um like real life photos of properties and um and jobs that we've carried out we talk about how they behave where they typically live where you're going to typically

23:16 find them yeah what to do in those situations so when we have contracts with homeless charity in South End for example we completely develop a bed bug policy so every staff member and every resident has this is is able to go through the policy and it's you know what to do in those situations what does a resident do what does a staff member do in order to contain it not spread it okay you know not not right that's it let's drag the mattress down the stairs and throw it outside and you know um so it's it's real it's just training fairly basic training to be able to give these frontline staff tools to be able to distinguish whether it's tobacco that's collected around a bed seam which i've been out called out to before or it is real life bed bugs okay no i just think it's really good it's you know i see i see it on your linkedin post we're getting very good with linkedin i've noticed recently i am really yeah i am i'm really they all say it's the holy gray you'll get tons of work but i've not got one job out of it so far but they reckon in the end it will pay off but it's it's a lot of um i get a lot of thing on the podcast you see but things like that but i think it's all who you're connecting with and the types of work that you want to

24:45 that you want to get and you know i think if you it might work because you're you're quite london based i'd imagine a lot of people go and look back i reckon you could probably get work off there yeah you could yeah we do we get a lot of work off there and a lot of connections people reaching out all the time you know clients and other pest controllers who don't typically like to do bed bug work do subcontract you know take work on with for other people so yeah we we we get a lot of conversation through linkedin which is really good that's good that is because we don't do any form of advertising so that's great yeah we don't we we pulled the plug on it early this year we was with a company for the whole time we've been operating as ben's bug and we swapped over sort of wanting to you know reach for the stars yeah and it just it cost us an absolute fortune and we got nothing from it and i said to ben do you know what like organically we're just trying to push the business as much as possible as we possibly can and touch wood we've we've implemented some things yeah repeat business is a big one for us repeat customers that you know last year had rats this year i've got wasps or ants and um and linkedin social media i think just

26:10 staying relevant and sort of in people's fit on people's feeds i think is is is good it's good you're right because you obviously understand because i tell people a lot you can go on facebook and do what you want right or social media if you're just going to go on there and stick a flyer on i do whilst i do bed bugs here's my number yeah i mean in reality you won't really get the work You've got to mix it up. If you've got to put educational posts on there, not the whole cell, you can say, if you need any more help, give us a message.

26:47 You've got to be, a lot of people don't like being sold to. It's kind of educating people. Don't get me wrong. If you were ever to make a video and it was a room full of bed bugs and it was catastrophic or whatever, you'd probably go VARBA overnightly. Yeah. Yeah. You would. I know. I'd be a new sex, eh? because that stuff pops it does mark once made a couple of videos and it really popped i think again so many people say to me oh you should you should you know have a tiktok and people would love to see that i think it's also it's quite difficult because you're normally in someone's bedroom so i think it's a real fine line about what you can get content off it's true yeah and you have to ask for permission obviously yeah and it's very different from like just grabbing a little i did it once a little bed book crawling across the mattress then actually filming the entire room going around it's very different so i went to a job the other day and it was a four-bedroom house it was vacant unfortunately the lady was in hospital so i no one else was there but the whole house was running alive yeah and it was it was a really good opportunity for me I thought I'm gonna I'm gonna vlog this like yeah but then I got there and I thought it would just be so it would distinguish it would just capture her whole home and that's not fair for me to do that no you know um I do I do like a video and and you know sort of like a some good photos and I think that's really sort of where I where I draw the line at content as

28:34 such unless I had obviously full permission of from somebody but that's that's fair because obviously I appreciate what you're talking about for advertising because at one point we were paying a company 500 pounds a month we were we stopped that we we um we used to when we do google adverts we do google guaranteed it's probably changed local service you know where they've got to call you physically yeah that that one we use that but uh we do a bit on local radio and some local sponsor boards but we don't do masses but that's good that you pulled the plug i need your phone that's great we we do one one the company that we sort of look after our website they do sort of like um google my business optimization and that's that's the only thing we pay for and it's a couple hundred quid a month um you know we was paying something like 1800 quid a month at one point and it was just for what we were getting back for that it just wasn't worth it you know i won't say names but i know some a company that we're paying five to six thousand pounds i'm not getting much money in the in return and i'm not not many social posts not money this because they can take the mix they can yeah and you've got to weigh it up and yeah you absolutely have you know and if you're

30:02 getting if you're able to push that the contract work the regular work is coming in you know we do some work for some big facilities companies and um lots of estate agents so that regular work is and you're not paying for it so you can be more competitive as well that's good that is that is so obviously how important is understanding the bed bug behavior compared to just knowing what products to use because obviously some people literally just go right cimetrol super around the room and firstly sean i have i have been that person as well yeah right prior to prior to putting myself out there and learning i was that person simmatrol super was my go-to product until someone said to me once if you use simmatrol super when you're treating bed bugs you need to get yourself a new job really someone said that to you yeah okay um and i was like i was really taken back and i was like i rate this product i've used this product for the last five years or however long we were using it for and yeah but the more i looked into it the more in-depth training i got and the more i learned the more i realized that actually i okay so i go around into I go around the bedroom and I'm spraying Symmetrol on the floor.

31:26 I'm not touching the bed. I'm just spraying it all around because obviously some can't spray Symmetrol everywhere.

31:36 What's that? The bed bug doesn't come off of the bed, walk along the floor and then go back onto the bed. So understanding how they behave is imperative to a good treatment and a successful treatment. um we've always used the steaming machine but again i do think that that's that can be limited at times okay because you're not always going to get to every seat it only kills on contact obviously it leaves no residual so if you're not getting those bed bugs on contact with the steamer and you're spraying symmetrol around the floor then yeah no wonder you're continuing to getting callbacks because they're not interacting with any insecticide no you're right i mean pretty much what i i used to do i mean you don't do many bed bugs jobs anyway but that's what i used to do and we did get called back and i believe we fixed it last time we actually said to the lady on one of them we've got this new product this is it's called chin chicks we'll come back for nothing she's never rang back so I'm guessing it worked she didn't ring back it was just in her son's room the sun goes uni I was in the bed in all the cracks and crevices I enjoyed it actually I was actually highly I was highly sceptical of Chinchicks because I hear this silica dust and what sold me was what Dr Richard Naylor was talking about on that round table with Sarah and Francisco.

33:12 Because I thought it was dangerous, you see. And it's not. It's not. So with that, I actually... Table salt is more dangerous. Table salt is more toxic, yeah. Yeah. Well, that's what... And then I believe she hasn't rang back sick. We said to her, any more issues, give us a call. And she hasn't rang back. Yeah. So to be honest, that's what we do now. If someone asks, bed bug job, that's what we do now. With Symmetrile, it's also got an insect growth regulator in it. So in the way that that works, it stumps the growth of an insect.

33:49 But in order for a bed bug to develop into the next stage, you've still got to feed. So we are expecting it still, in order for it to stump the growth of the insect, we're still expecting it to feed on somebody. um and is that right for us to do that no probably not not it's not really and then you're just ending up with this super duper ninja nymph of a bed bug because it's continuing you know and so i think really having an understanding and i do think sometimes it is also about education but it's also about our suppliers providing us the correct information as well um because you're you are sold products yeah with the label and this is how you do and they say you you know um whether it's your compression sprayer or you know whatever application you use this is what this is what it kills and i think um sometimes it can i don't know if misleading is the right word but you don't really give a you don't really give any training on it did i like say this is what you should use it for this is where you should use it here's that you know that kind of i know exactly what you're saying because some products companies it's more if in america probably a lot of the suppliers they actually go and do training on certain products yeah and they make videos and stuff so you are right and it's like the smoke generators you can pick them up and they've got yeah bed bugs on them they're the worst thing you can

35:26 can possibly use when it comes to a bed bug and it's just going to make an issue worse it's going to push them more into the fabric of the building make it extremely difficult for treatment to be successful at times and again it's it's not it's not explained it's not you know we qualify doing the level two yeah and that allows us all to go out and buy rodenticide and insecticide and you know but it doesn't make as good pest controllers no it's this it's obviously i i started off on the basics i went i started on kill germs rodent control and um insect course and i eventually did the the rsph level two awarding pest management but you're right it doesn't make it's the experience that makes you the expert what's more frightening is so this you have to have you qualified to buy we don't decide.

36:17 I fully agree with it. You have to have your CPD if it's run out each year. I fully agree with it. My own opinion, everyone. My own, not the MPTAs. My own, just get it out there. If you're a member of the public and you don't go to a professional pest supplier, you could buy yourself a bottle of Symmetrol Super on the net and use it. You don't need a certificate. Now, I'll tell you why the professional pest suppliers don't sell you it. Because they think legally. What if this Mrs. Whoever goes and use it and kills somebody where it'd be the news?

36:51 Yeah. So they just make sure you've got its certificates. But I think eventually, I think there will be a version of crew, but for insecticides. Insecticides, yeah. I've not heard it, but I just think eventually it will happen. And I think it's really important that that happens. And, you know, I mean, look, obviously there's a huge conversation, isn't there, at the moment around redenticide and wildlife. and we're fully on board with that and what we can do to limit that risk and impact. I was talking to a customer the other day, actually about a month ago now, and they live in the council flat and the council responsible for their pest control.

37:31 And it's a block of four flats, two up and two down. And for about three years, this bed bug issue has been going around the flats. And they have a local company going out who is responsible for their pest control and goes in. She's had 21 insecticide sprays in 14 months. 14? Oh, damn. Wow. Yeah. I'd feel like I've failed. Yeah. Well, it is failure. It is. It is. It's not working. Yeah. So. 14. 14, yeah. and she said to me um she rescued a dog and the dog died of liver failure oh no and she now pursuing this because she thinks that the overuse of insecticide has potentially caused this in her dog and again it it it about knowing and understanding the product why are we why are you still spraying for after 14 months when it's still not working.

38:42 You've got to go back to the drawing board and think, actually, that's not worked, even after two or three. That's not worked. Why is it not working? What else can we use? Let's look at the bigger picture. There we go. You know, that's in place. The other three flats were also having a problem. So, of course, this flat is going to continue to be reinvested. yeah it's yeah so obviously he's gonna have to get his paperwork in order yeah because uh whether they'll be able to prove that i have no idea but she's definitely she would have should have had to have she would have to have had the post-mortem and asked for any residues of insecticide maybe i don't i don't know i don't know how it works i don't But again, it just comes back to that, not just using insecticide.

39:40 You know, you've got, again, I believe when it comes to bed bugs, you've got to know more. You've got to be trained more, better. And there's a massive conversation, and this will probably come into your next question, around resistance as well. yeah this spray 21 times of course the bed bug is going to build a resistance up to it of course it's not even if it was just a one flap i agree also there was something i can't remember which podcast it was on it was dr richard nader and he actually said that when they sell you a bed they actually the wood inside it is already spread already sprayed with pyrethrins already already you know that's a marketing tool against bed bugs you know so he said that but the problem is apparently to not do it with that is is not so industry standard and they think if they don't do it they'll get behind or something you've got to convince the entire industry to stop spraying the beds or something yeah it's not easy to convince them that's not the way to do it it's crazy and you think we're also spraying insecticides around bedrooms children's bedrooms places that we sleep and spend lots of time and it's it's just not good and if there's alternative non-toxic methods you know and and i only use chin checks now i don't use anything else when it comes to bed bugs yeah um and i do believe that when people try it they will also feel the same like you you've got decent faults on it first time you've used it even on low level

41:28 infestations the first job i used it was a one bedroom uh flat yeah and it had a real low level in it yeah and first i never went back i never had to go back because they they didn't call me back well that's nice i mean i was highly skeptical i mean i was on when when when he was on the beauty simply says what's sending through quite harsh questions and i invited him on but it wasn't it was because i was worried about it yeah and then after that podcast he really and i said oh i'm scared and then richard goes give us your address sean i'll just send you a bottle yeah and i tell you what people if you've not had a bottle of it a 50 gram bottle obviously you can buy it in the bigger packs i said i said i get handed this to my wife and i said is there anything in that and she went no it's empty i said it's full and it's that light you'll pick it up and it feels like it's empty yeah it was but i i there is something in the chinchicks working because because it's caused a lot of dirt and i'll be honest i've seen more positive press the negative press on it and there's got these things yeah i think it's changing but i do believe i'm not saying any companies but i do believe some companies have gone crying some

42:54 punk news have gone to hse because i believe that the bed book market so i don't know who it is i've just heard rumors because obviously if you're having a product that's everyone's going to and you were the market leader or you know multiple people were the leaders yeah you'll be like well this product's absolutely everyone's going to this this desiccant dust this new non-toxic It's not. And I don't know if anyone actually has. It's just rumours I'm hearing. But by, like Richard said, by their own definition, Chinchicks is not a biocide by its own definition.

43:38 In order for it to be a biocide, they'd have to go back and rewrite there what a biocide is, because it isn't. But I believe there's a lot of fear because the product's working. There's a lot of interest. It's staring at a lot of interest because Chinchicks, you don't have to go to even a pest supplier. You literally could go on their website and buy it. You can. And in Europe, another telling tale, have you ever heard of that massive multi-million company called Antisemex? Yeah. Well, they've got the distribution rights for Europe, so that's very telling.

44:13 Very telling. Yeah. Francisco said they also will have rights to sell it to people as well. Yeah. So that's telling, isn't it? It is very. And I think as we are facing more resistance and answering your question about conventional insecticides, I sent some bedbugs over to Richard. I have been sending multiple batches of bedbugs over to Richard to test. and I think he explained when he was on the Chinchick Roundtable or on your podcast he explained that he had them exposed to the highest dosage of a cypermethrine I think it was a cypermethrine That blew my mind though when he said I gave up and he gave up Wow.

45:12 Mental. And in the field, if you are spraying that, those bed bugs aren't going to be exposed 24 hours a day. No. So they're not dying when they are fully exposed, let alone when they're coming out once a week to feed. Yeah. If the residual is still there, and if you've sprayed it in the right places for them to cross that path. Exactly. It is. it is because i brought him up on the fact that i hear at pestex you called this a game changer why is that he says it sounds like something i would have said yeah you've got a problem with it i hate game changer but i use it a lot i says i just make a deal out of it but i said it i do think it is game changing the game's not changed in 40 50 years this is something different yeah Yeah.

46:05 And it does seem to be, I'll be honest with you, not a bed bug expert at all. I don't do many jobs, but the jobs I've used it on, I've had good success with it. Yeah. And I think we have to move. I think we have to move with the times. You do. And we have to move and adapt to what we're facing as an industry, specifically bed bugs. Yeah. Is we are, we are, because we've relied heavily on conventional insecticides. Yeah. we are now being faced with a resistance issue where they're not working anymore so we have to move and adapt and evolve with products and practices that are that do work yeah because they always say when you're doing something right and something's working you'll get you'll get a bit of crap for it well if what i hear complaints to the hsc might if it is true i would say that's having a heavy effect because a lot of these products are supposedly made for bed bugs yeah and if there's a heavy resistance and this new product came came out and it's everyone's loving it and everyone's telling it everyone's telling each other another and everyone's trying it it's gonna hit their massively massively so if it is true which allegedly i hear it as a rumor and there's no fact anyone so don't try and say i said something that i didn't i just hear rumors i can see why because if you're you're the mark i don't know you you sell that and that's specifically for that kind of bug and someone's came out with something different that's working everyone's loving it i need to be fair with tin chicks they're not a big company and they've they've managed to do a lot of depress in the uk through podcasts and people like sarah and yourself

48:04 you haven't publicly spoke much about it have you on on the net here really no no no sarah's sarah's shouting about it for all of us you know she's doing a great job getting it out there word of mouth basically they haven't had to do a lot to get like a movement kind of thing yeah well i think it's a good thing yeah and and i agree and i think you know when you do have a good product like people should share experiences around it and you know no gatekeeping like we want we want to share success stories and you know I'm always a believer of like the work does the talking and that's why I don't really shout about too much um because I think you know I I see the success in I in what in the jobs that I do and my customers see that and if I can if I can that adds value for me yeah instilling confidence in my customers the fact that they're seeing a knockdown rate really quickly with chin checks that they're seeing results almost straight away especially when you're going to customers who have had ongoing treatments with other local pest controllers who haven't been out of the issue exactly it's like because i asked us on my website out do i advertise it and i haven't put chin chicks it's just use desiccant dust as things

49:40 like you don't actually say what it is because technically the customer could come buy some yeah as well but but yeah i use the term desiccant dust yeah and i've also had customers i had one the other day who went around and he was saying that he was being bitten and there was a tiny I couldn't find any bed bugs but I found some sort of like fecal spots and some evidence that had been some sort of activity and I said to him you can buy this chin check go and buy it the home kit or yeah go on there and buy it and see if you can do it yourself because you know it's gonna it's gonna help sarah buy a boat in the bahamas yeah yeah um but it's it's it's you know some people we have to i'm always a firm believer as well is like you haven't got to one thing that really annoys me when bed bugs come up instantly people think oh my god it's going to cost me thousands of pounds they do though it's inherent that is yeah and i think pest controllers also think oh they're bugs i can charge a lot i can charge more yeah whereas i think when you're getting the results from chin checks you haven't then got multiple return visits that you've got to charge for which brings the cost down i'm fairly confident i can get i mean i don't guarantee it

51:07 after one visit is that something that i i just i don't think that it's not something i do um but I can definitely bring my visits down because I'm getting quicker and better results from using it. I agree because obviously it's a change of mindset as well because everyone is used to spraying everywhere. So with Chinchicks, you don't just go and get down on your knees and dust the entire carpet, do you? No. It's very targeted. is within the bed frames within light switches within yeah skirting boards all this so that's kind of part of the is that the kind of areas you hit the targeted yeah hidden areas as much as you can yeah absolutely so those areas around the bed frame yeah sort of like a meter squared of the bed frame really again depending on the level of activity um are our areas that we really focus on i mean i again depending on levels is if it's really bad if i don't believe i can save the bed or any furniture i'll always advise if it's more cost effective for the bed to be replaced or a piece of furniture to be replaced than me continuously coming out and treating it okay yeah secondly i think um i if i do think it's saveable i will take the bed apart okay because i think you've got to get into every nook and cranny that you possibly can sometimes it can you know you build a bed it can take you hours to put it together it can you must be really good with with diy you must i think you just get used to it you know and i think like you know like those little slack pockets are key areas um taking the material off of either underneath or the back of a divan bed yeah i've heard that one especially from sarah i rip it off it's not there for any it's only for dust it is and once the bed base

53:12 is back down you don't see that it's not there exactly um you know so yeah again to your question application is really important i think it's a tricky one i get multiple calls from other pest controllers to say oh how do you use it how much do you use how do you apply it what do you use to apply it and I think it's really it's a really tricky product to know how much to put down when you first use it like you said earlier it's so light that you wouldn't even think that there was anything in the bottle exactly it's it's like I actually Richard sent me a a chin chicks brush which i i broke within my second job doing it and apparently you just buy you know makeup brushes so and even francisco says i break them all the time yeah they break so easy just buy cheap ones i i just use paintbrush and i have you know you can get like a set of small paintbrushes bigger large big ones and i use all different paintbrushes depending on what i'm applying okay so if i'm if i'm if i'm dusting along the skirting board then i've got the bigger brush if i'm dusting real intricate areas then i'm using a smaller brush exactly but is it i think i think it is a mindset change because the average pest controller isn't we're used to using dust

54:35 for wasp nests in holes in war voids not in someone's bedroom or like that so because i've watched all the videos and when you watch them it's not fight it's not there's not a big like when you're in the bed it's not masses it's like you can't see it much but it's still there yeah it's not like you have to have big sludges of powder like you know when you go in a house where someone's chucked de everywhere because because they all think they can and that's normally the homeowner not the professional but if you watch the videos people it literally is fine it's there it's not yeah it's and i think not an expert but you're more of an expert using it but that's what i've gathered you don't have to you apply it finally really as long as you go along yeah but you don't have to have big bits of um that's what obviously some people think oh there's nothing there i need to put more on i need to put more on and i think as you get used when you very first start using the product i think you think oh have i put enough down is that enough for me and i think those first few jobs of using it you really get to know the product how much to use how much to apply um you know sometimes you might look at the floor and think i can't see it have i put stuff

55:53 down have i you know um i think you get used to that the more the more you use it and i think again it's it's a whole change i mean you could go in once you've topped your compression sprayer up you could get around the bedroom in two minutes as long as the floor is clear yeah chin checks isn't like that you know if especially if you're taking the bed apart or you know you but even if you're not and you're just using you're not using a steamer and you're not taking the bed apart and you're just distributing and just applying chin checks you're there probably for 20 to 30 minutes yeah so it's a very different process to just going in and spraying a an insecticide around it is it's it's it's a mind shift as well yeah uh as well you've got to like also give it because some people are experimenting on and using it but not using it fully and you've got to give it more of a chance you have sometimes you may have missed not you may have missed an area you you didn't think you may have missed something but it's and no one's obviously claiming obviously that you can do it in one visit.

57:03 Low level, I reckon you probably could do it like you've mentioned. But yeah, it's exciting. I want more bedbought. I honestly wish I could get more bedbought. If I get more, I actually look forward to hearing I've got a bedbought job. Yeah. Because I can try the chin chicks again. Yeah. I was like, is it good? Because I've heard that when you get more jobs, like Francisco said, you're better off buying the bigger pack. And he showed me the kind of boxes you put it in He made a video hasn he on how to put it in a big box around spilling it How to undo the package yeah It can be the first time it tricky Honestly, I ended up with chin checks everywhere because I couldn't work it out.

57:43 And I was like, this isn't right. And, yeah, I just ended up in a big cloud of chin checks. I messaged Francisco and I said, how do I do this without wasting it? And then he sent me the link to the video. and I was like, that's better. Like everyone, it's like a big lunchbox, basically. Yeah, it is. You've got to buy the lunchbox yourself, obviously.

58:08 But yeah, it's changing times, it is. And people have got to try, you've got to try these things. I was highly sceptical. There's got to be something in it. There's got to be. And even people local to me i started trying it and that's what i thought wow you're watching my podcast no i didn't i said oh you gotta go and watch it now yeah i was meaning to but i said you know it's i think when you when you start um you know listening to people like richard naylor who have been studying bed bugs for 25 years yeah you know and there's a guy called steven i can't remember his last name is he's basically the equivalent of Richard Nader, but over in Australia.

59:01 Oh, I listened to him on the podcast, Pesty Profiles he was on. Fantastic. Yeah. I can't think of his name. They've got it over there, haven't they? It's under a different brand. Yeah. And he said, like, the Chinchicks, like, the silica dust, is the way to treat bedbugs. and I think we have to listen to these real experts in what they're saying to us and what they're advising. Exactly. And I think, again, I think sometimes your pest controllers, because it's not being sold through your big suppliers, don't necessarily always trust that.

59:42 I will say as well, there might be something. the website it i think some people are skeptical at times because it's not the website's nice it does the job but it doesn't look as fancy as all the other sites does it do you know what i was funny to say that because i was yeah i was having a look i was reading it was a comment on facebook i think the other day and um it mentioned about the website and i hadn't actually looked at it to be fair because i've never really had to i just go on and order my products and that's that's really it um but it did say it doesn't explain what it does or how it works and i thought that was an interesting comment and i went onto the website and i had a look and I suppose it could maybe be a bit more informative around what it is, the mode of action, how it works, how to apply it, and all of that information.

1:00:48 But yeah, I think it's very new. I think it's, from what I can see, sort of really gained a lot of momentum. It has. It's probably something that's, you know, I'm sure if someone was to speak to them and say, they would add that information like that you know and it might be on there i actually didn't i didn't actually dig around too much to to have a look but they do have a lot of um a lot of videos yeah and a lot of case studies and a lot of other information too so it might be there somewhere let's see there's a chin chicks um uk in there there's chin chicks.com yeah and you probably find that it's on the chinchicks.com i think it's on all the information all the data sheet all the all the information the downloads oh they've worked this website's been up it's not this is this looks like it's been updated i think the uk one is just where you can go on and purchase it i'm not yeah but nobody says documents there's tutorials on there now it looks to me like uh Yes.

1:01:58 Now, it looks that the feedback's been taken on board because it actually says here on the Chinchick site how to use Chinchicks, a guide. And it's in writing. Actually, preparation, mattress, bed frame, sofa. Maybe it was just in the works. Maybe. It doesn't actually say in that set of people who ask questions. Let's have a look. There we go. How do I know? Basically, how does it compare? He does explain it in there How do we know Chinchicks is effective So doctors Are you on about Dr Stephen Doggett From Australia I'll probably How is Chinchicks safe I'll then draw back Just try and see if the Mode of action Physical mode of action It'll be there somewhere Yeah, so the way it works is obviously when the bug passes through chin checks, a cloud of the chin checks covers the bed bug and it fills its lipids and that dehydrates the bug.

1:03:15 Good, that is. It's quite simple. Yeah, there's no way of it building a resistance up to it, which is again great it is by i hear as well that it actually works on cockroaches apparently so apparently i've got a cockroach job at the minute i don't get many jobs i i used uh i used a gel instead of that but um maybe if i get any more may have a gun i don't know i whenever i do cockroaches i always get great results from a gel so i don't tend to deviate from another product i use some hoi hoys too i've used them before love hoi hoys yeah i've put some down so uh yeah really good but to be fair this commercial business had actually put down tons and tons of monitors.

1:04:14 I think they're called ninja monitors. They're sticky boards. They've already put some down. So when I got there, I was like, here's the evidence I need. There they are. Germans. Yeah. I've put some hoi hois down on the jailbait. That's the best that works. I mean, I would. I'm confident with bed bugs. I'm just not confident on cockroaches. I'm not, obviously. but i'm sure at some point it might i don't know but there must be something in it because yeah i'm more confident on the bed bug side i am i don't get enough i don't get enough cockroach jobs to keep the test it but i'm happy with the bed bug what was going on there i am so when you you know in your jobs how do you monitor them after or how do you do you monitor to the treatment after before you're happy as saying you're clear definitely so so all of my treatment plans are normally three to four visits okay so my first visit will be real in depth sort of pulling the bed apart um steam hoovering steaming dusting then i'll return repeat that process if it's necessary but normally it's just reapplying of the dust yeah and then normally my third and my fourth visit are monitoring so again that that just looks like a real a re-survey of all the areas to see if there's any new any any new evidence and new markings yeah um i used to use monitors and i don't tend to use monitors anymore okay up until recently I've been trialling the bug sense monitors.

1:06:05 Have you seen my name in the manual? I haven't, no. No. You read it, I'm in it. Oh, really? I trialled it at one point. It wasn't me. The customers kept telling me they were working really well. They were full of bed bugs. Right. And they asked me if I wanted to do a testimonial and I ended up with this little leaflet. Oh, nice. I did. but i'm glad to hear that you're having success because yeah people say they're crap yeah so i've been using them on the hazard association job um and yeah so far so good normal domestic customers it's just keeping in contact with the customer have you seen anything any new bites any new markings on your bedding resurveying and again resurveying again if i if I'm suspicious of anything then I may use a device of some sort okay um if in the if in like the housing associations that want ongoing monitoring yeah then I think it's that particular device in that particular housing association they have said to me that it sort of added a level of reassurance as well okay so yeah i mean i'm always open to using and trying new products out to see if if they'll add value to to to the job and to the customer uh but normally and i think with bed bugs it's just visually i don't think you can be a visually checking and a visual inspection yeah have you if you ever this is the way to ask but but you've obviously been back to jobs and have you actually got any photos of like bed bugs in chin chicks yeah yeah yeah i've never seen any do you know what's really satisfying is if i if i i know this is savage but if i'm dusting i had a really bad one the other day

1:08:13 and i was dusting the bed and i had the box of chin checks and i was dusting like that and these bedbugs were just falling into the box and I could just see them scurrying around the box and it had a little level of chin cheeks in the bottom they didn't last very long when they were in there no yeah so but yeah that's normally my process is I like to monitor because I like to know if I've done a good job as well and I'm trapped with the job that's been done That's really good that is and I'm pleased I haven't used the bug sense in ages to be fair I haven't I'm never sure because when you go to their stand not all of them are not all the best at trying to convey the product because I was like some best controllers say that this is one of the people some of them say it don't work and some of them say it does yeah i said he says have you seen this product i says have a look in that book you're not there who i am why are you i says i'm sean so have you read that that testimonial what you got there oh you're in the book you should read it yeah you should i think i think monitors in general are a massive talking point and they're massive they are you know i've used lots of different monitors in the past um

1:09:54 sold them to customers and they've not been effective um my training that i had earlier on in the year sort of opened my eyes up to it as well um yeah some work for some people some work for don't work for others you know um but yeah visual inspections you can't be having a look with your own eyeballs in my opinion have you ever had to use subcontract boxing out of interest I haven't, no. I haven't yet. We have spoken with a company and sort of like become an approved contractor should we ever need to.

1:10:37 But no, I haven't. However, I saw the demonstration once at Pestex and I was very impressed. Very impressed. Good. I just thought I'd ask you because it's a thing now that a lot of companies offer. Yeah. We did look at getting a bed bug detection dog once. I think after that. A lot of money, a lot of training. A lot of training. You know, you've got to, it's like a bird, it's always like a bird of prey. it's like you've got to think you've got to teach as a working dog not yeah so you it's a lot of hard work that goes into the training and everything and then having to so it's a major commitment well and it wouldn't have been fair to have two pet dogs and then a working dog so we never did and i don't think at the time and probably not even really now would we get the true return on on it i think if we ever needed to there are companies out there who would do that on our behalf or you know in in partnership with us um again i think they're great but i do i get there's error there too and i've spoken to i've spoken to people where they haven't detected bed bugs when there is bed bugs um and again i think yeah nothing beats sort of a really good visual check and a good borough inspection no you're not wrong i just i just thought i'd get your opinion on it that's all it's uh i've not had someone on yet for that but i'm um in talks with somebody yeah that'd be a good conversation um i am so so yeah so thanks for coming on um thanks for having me no no thanks for going to come on and this new pre-recorded thing it will be out tuesday it will i'll put i'm going to post it directly into the bed bug group

1:12:43 okay the bed bug group that asks any kind of bug in the world what is it yes they seem to just don't even look at what a bed bug looks like now it's like what's this i'm not sure how um sarah has the patience to respond to some of the people on there and the requests on it's it's it's too hard to monitor every single post isn't it she's a busy person she is yeah yeah it's a good group the it's a good group just that um i just wish some people just actually have a look at what a bed bug is before like saying what's this yeah yeah because they roughly there's a look to them and if you go on the bed bug group there's literally a picture at the top yeah that's what one is.

1:13:28 Absolutely, yeah. It is. Yeah, she's a busy lady, but yeah, she does a fab job. She does. Yeah, she does. It's good. My picture made it to the front of the new bus. I saw that. Yeah, I saw that. She was like, I thought that was mine. I said, no, because that's my computer. It's the one I sent you. Is it over? I says, no, you can do what you like with it. I'm not bothered. That was my computer. I says, i says no i just keep it if you want i don't care but also if there's any other sort of you know pest controllers out there that are thinking about using it and have any questions or um want to talk about using chin checks how to use it how to apply it you know i'm always happy to have those conversations and i i often have those conversations with with other people as well um so yeah i'm more than happy if anyone's listening that you think oh i'm going to trial that but I'm not sure how, then, you know, get in touch and I'm happy to have a call or exchange a couple of text messages on how I do it and if that would be of any help, you know, I'm open to that.

1:14:41 Thanks for coming on, Lee. It's been good to have you on. You definitely really understand your bed bugs. I can see why you're a specialist. You really are good. And if there's any pest controllers out there that don't like doing them and that want to pass them over, then, you know, we also take on other pest controllers work. We've only sort of Essex, London, Kent area, really. But, yeah, again, open to have those conversations too. There you go, people. So if you need to subcontract in that area, contact or compete.

1:15:12 People don't believe me that we enjoy tackling bedbugs, you know. I think it's one of the worst, one of the most dreaded pests for most pests to control technicians out there for sure. well especially with all the resistance and not working they're gonna but you've got to move at the times and try new new products like gin chicks absolutely you have but um thanks for coming on i've just got to do a little shout out for powers now you want to check out powers now they offer um job job management software like you do your pest reports eras invoicing i now use the invoicing bit with SumUp.

1:15:53 It's made it a lot easier. They sponsor the podcast to help the podcast grow and they pay for this software and bank each of the power of our team. There will be a link in the podcast description if you want to check it out and I will pop in a link as well to complete bedbug solutions as well. If any best controllers want to subcontract their work then they can contact you through that way or you can on linkedin ain't you lee you are absolutely yeah so so uh thanks everyone for watching and i'll see you all next week and uh thanks lee i'll just end the recording just stay on for a minute thank you see ya thank you bye