084:Rodent Proofing & Exclusion Tips | Ben Channon, Xcluder

0:00 Hello and welcome to Pest Perspectives episode 84. Thanks to everyone that watched the podcast last week with Lee Darby from Complete Bedbug Solutions. It seemed to have gone down a storm. It was highly popular on Facebook, Spotify, Apple. So if you enjoyed it on there, please press follow. Follow on your preferred platform that you're following on. Subscribe if you're on YouTube. thanks for watching also just want to shout out to power now who sponsored the show help me pay for this software on now and help me pay for the website to push the podcast forward they're a job management company so basically there's it's a software you can schedule your clients in test control reports all sorts of reports even if you're electrician all that kind of reports it's got included it has so yeah if you want to check it out this there'll be a link in the description when the show goes live because we're not live anymore this is recorded and this week we have ben chaninon director of excluder and industrial products and also he's got an ace i like that how are you doing good sean how are you good i'm okay cheers right so um obviously before we get into excluder how did you first get into pest management and what led you towards specializing rodent exclusion i imagine this is quite a long long answer it can be a long answer so i mean like many people i didn't play i didn't dream of being a pest controller when i was a young boy um but i started uh like many people in the industry i started as a service technician uh doing you know regular route work regular routine pest control

1:59 work um in a broad spectrum i did a lot in food manufacturing but before that did residential did work in uh bed bug work you know quite a bit of bed bug work you mentioned a bed bug episode And with rodent exclusion and rodent proofing, I worked in Chicago, which is primarily where my work took me. And any urban environment, Chicago or overseas, has got a fair amount of rodent pressure. So it led me naturally towards rodent exclusion.

2:32 That's good. So whereabouts did you start out when you first came into pest control? I know you said what you were, but was it like, did you work for a big national or was it a small firm? How did it work? Sure, sure. So I worked for a mid-sized regional company, actually two of them. I worked for one company.

3:01 I'm happy to do one way of name companies or no? You don't have to. It's up to you. Okay. so i worked for but i would guess though nowadays they've probably been bought by national i know how it is there everyone yeah so one of them has uh so i worked for one company about three and a half years and the rest of it with another company the company that i worked for the longer time did get purchased by by you know got purchased by one national and it got purchased by another national from there oh i see okay when you were working there did it get purchased while you were working there yes so so obviously beforehand it was independent so when you were working did you notice a structure when the big boys took over the company did it change within internally yeah It changed internally.

3:55 There was a reality when the stockholders became a little bit more involved. It became a little bit more about making sure we could deliver on the numbers. And there was procedures that were very much enforced. I would say when I worked for the regional company before we got bought, there was policies and procedures, but more open to discussion for how those would change versus when we got bought by a national okay i just thought i'd ask so i do hear about this where they always say when a company even in this country even when a company gets bought half your staff leave or they get rid of half of the staff or something they say something like that uh because things change a lot of people don't like change to do that as well they don't people are afraid of it and sometimes it's for the right and sometimes it's not but uh i would say when i when we got bar initially there was not a a mass exodus necessarily okay okay well that's good then that is it is um did you ever did you did you work on with any within any of your roles did you work in the big food manufacturing facilities where they're audited heavily them absolutely so So I was a technician for about six years.

5:21 And the last two years of that, I spent exclusively in food manufacturing processing facilities. So when they were audited by any number of third party or regulatory agencies. And then for the last eight years or so of my time in the industry was management of those technicians servicing those food manufacturing facilities. so I work closely with food manufacturing facilities who've been audited okay because there's so many different auditing plates I imagine in America BRCGS is there isn't they absolutely they are um I've never done one but I know a lot of people that do them I do um but yeah I imagine you've got a few more different names over there Yeah, it's certainly an alphabet soup, as we tend to call it.

6:17 But I would say B-R-C-G-S sort of falls into the Global Food Safety Initiative, where they're being more risk-based and risk-focused than what we've had over the years, which is much more measurement-focused. right you can never trap every 50 feet or you know 15 meters or something like this but instead it's going to having um you know more thought behind it more of a risk analysis completed and then installing devices and monitoring tools in that way

6:48 so obviously within the food manufacturing world have you seen a move to obviously i'm I'm on about the high-end sites you've done. The digital monitoring, has that become a thing? Sure. Yeah, absolutely. We've seen it become a thing because there's a lot of interstitial space, a lot of lack of space with lack of access, where people are demanding that real-time data and putting eyes on it where the service technician can't necessarily get to. I know there's monitors now and more and more coming out in the industry.

7:24 i'm less i'm less familiar with some of them because they're newer but if they're coming out and they don't even require devices right they're new device new inspection tools and monitors where they can do that digital monitoring yeah it is interesting i did a trial with uh i'll say the name because i'm allowed to because i i did a trial for the you know the mpta i was mapping off saying that digital tool pest monitoring wasn't for small businesses this was before i became on the board they went sean do you want to do a trial for syngenta sure all right then so i trialed it and don't get me wrong it was all right but it's the cost involved in it you'd have to pass on the client wasn't happy they were having to do part of the trial but they didn't really want to because you have to do like a one two three four year deal thing kind of thing but i i was fair in my review i said if i had a high-end food site then that was most likely fit into the it would really help that'd be beneficial that would but i was fair with the review but it's like you have to do a lot of learning like when you have you know activations how many activations is it to whether a monitoring block is gone or whether a toxic block is gone

8:45 because i had one where it was 14 activations and it was only like quarter of the block sure so you can't see it can you there's no camera there to see it so you got to learn so they were getting loads of visits that's how it was i thought i was only going to the boxes i was to learn it i was yeah there's definitely a learning process behind any of them right any the tools that are available i would say it's you know and you're right the customers who are less sensitive or a higher higher tolerance to pests are going to be less likely to spend the money the food manufacturing or the pharmaceutical facilities or they were they lower tolerance for pests you'll see them willing to spend for a higher end program exactly because it's like place it the thing i think it'd be really good for is placing them in roof voids you know voids where you can't access that that's where the best yeah i think because then you'll know if they're in the building you're right and you're not going up in the you know getting up on a ladder or up on a lift sometimes those spaces are truly unaccessible and that's where it's really beneficial it will yeah oh yeah you're right you're right there it's uh it's never changing world isn't it it is

10:04 everyone seems to have their own version and as people always think you know is it just a pest controller you're an exterminator you're a bug guy there's a lot more to know than just being a bug guy there is there is a lot more there is so obviously with you spending a lot of time around food manufacturing distribution and audited facilities how different is pest management in those environments compared to say normal commercial work you know say you've got a few pubs uh you know things ain't audited is it very like because obviously a lot of places we all know you can get around normal commercial sites pretty quickly usually but i imagine that these audited sites sometimes probably require you to be there all day or half a day to do all checks so it's a it's a different type of work it's a different pace for just like what you're talking about sean right so you've got the and it's what are you doing right what is the goal right so in a pub or a restaurant the idea is to knock down the activity and address it obviously doing everything legally and compliant and providing the documentation right but it's probably a pretty easy space to navigate and to get around quickly a food manufacturing facility

11:22 is a whole different matrix of the site. You have to learn how things flow through the building, where things are coming in, and you learn to work in concert with the facility, right? You learn to work, you know, and there's certain treatments you can only do when you're not in operation, right? So that might be coming in on a weekend or an evening. It's just a different environment. Yeah, no, it makes sense. I've never, I've put in bids for them, I've never got them. It would be cool just to try and do one.

11:57 For some experience, to try and get one. I've never been to somewhere where you have to walk in a building and they make you put a hairnet on or something. I've never been to anywhere like that. So I imagine that takes you more time and each area may be different. You may have to change into different things. 100%. You're dealing with allergens, right? Dealing with allergens to go in or out. The hairnets, the smocks. You know, you have to go out to the truck to get something. It could be a 30 minute walk to your truck.

12:31 Yeah. And I imagine certain things can't be carried through certain areas. Exactly. You might spend more time doing that. At times, at times, or just a simple number of devices when it comes to device checking. uh you know i mean i remember i had one site that had 150 outside boxes yeah right or 250 inside monitoring traps right inside metal multi-catch traps yeah that's just up and down 250 times every week just doing that goodness i've got any sites like that i ain't got And it's 250. Oh, look, if I've got a site that's got...

13:13 I've probably got a site with 30 boxes on, probably. Yeah, baby stuff compared to what you've done. But, you know, maybe one day. It's all pest management. It's all pest control, right? And there's all the challenges no matter where you go. Exactly, exactly. So here's one for you, because obviously there's been a bit of a... I speak to my, I've got quite a few American friends I chat to. And they have, because we use different words to do in America. So often, you know, the phrase exclusion in pest management, what does that mean to you?

13:50 Well, I don't often say exclusion. I say, we say proofing. And she said to me, sure, what's proofing? Is it exclusion? I said, yeah, it's the same thing. Oh, okay. Because it's just a different term. but some people in England call it exclusion. They do. But proofing is kind of the term we use. So what does exclusion in pest management mean to you? Like the technical term, as in the way you see it. So exclusion is pest prevention, right? So pest prevention versus pest management. And you're allowed to be able to set that up for your clients.

14:25 So if you're dealing with a sensitive environment, the way that we're talking about, certainly they're going to look for prevention as opposed to reaction right so food manufacturing they're going to want you to prevent versus react but even you know if you're doing homes if you're doing a pub or a restaurant they're going to want you to prevent it they they don't want to call you and say we've got a rat running through they want to say we're using xyz service and we don't have rats running through yeah yeah i agree with you but some of the places you've mentioned i've recommended and recommend i got many more recommended and recommended that this briefing gets done and they don listen that the issue sometimes But I imagine you had that before 100 Sometimes I actually just done it for free There we go.

15:19 Solved it. But it happens. I wish it was a more preventative industry. And it is. It is. But I think in the UK, it's more reactive. but the domestic market's obviously reactive um we are starting to do more prevention we offer now proofing surveys where we just basic thing it's not it's not in detail it's like obvious defects we can fix but you'll be surprised i'm surprised how many people have actually took us up on it and i was very unsure i was when i first started offering it but more clients now have i've done actually yeah one and a half thousand pound job improving i have that's great that's but obviously you've got to appreciate this was more like a mansion so you know it's a big house basically it's a big absolutely no and i would say you know doing that type of work right it could be very lucrative right could be profitable based on the work yeah you got it's how you word it though you've got you've got to word it is a solution not just i'm trying to sell you all this you know just because exactly and that's what made me feel better about it because i'll i feel like i was selling a solution obviously obviously with that you can't like when we do it we don't offer a full guarantee because they could get in somewhere else but we just say for these areas only because you'd be silly because you could if you would i imagine some people do guarantees but as

17:10 you know in the uk we're rats a lot of the rats come in via the by the uh sewers right it'd be very difficult to guarantee uh proofing or exclusion of any building unless you do a very thorough job and what i find most times and i'm sure this is your experience as well is that people say do this part in this part but leave that part alone yeah yeah you get that and um it's it's a lot of the time that i find it with like when you get contracts a lot of the time they're not listening they're looking at the price on the thing and not reading it and just saying oh it would be cheaper just to get that done but then he explained so what if they you know i've killed them off now they could come different lock could come back a different way but you know it happens doesn't it it does it's all learning for me it's a different i was never taught to sell you see i started working with that so i haven't got that skill but i'm getting there i'm getting there i am as such so here you go here's another one based around exclusion as well sure do you think the pest control industry still relies too heavily on on controlling rodents after they enter the buildings rather than stopping them getting in getting in sorry uh i would say

18:40 now say the pest control industry but maybe the end users or customers yeah rely too heavily on it right? We've sold for years. And I say we, because I come from the industry, put out the stations, you'll solve your problems. Yeah. You know, the reality is there's a lot of places in a building where we can't put a trap, where we can't put a box, we can't put a box to solve our problems where rodents can go. So we, we should lean and our customers should lean on keeping them from coming in. Now, if, as long as they want to be operational, meaning the doors to that bar or pub opening meaning that food manufacturing facility accepting deliveries meaning the home having the car pull into the garage or the door open, there's a risk for rodents no matter how well you pest proof so you still need those monitoring devices, you still need those traps but I believe proofing or exclusion is a key to control No, it definitely is I mean, within our industry, and you guys speak to a lot of pest controllers, I've seen more of a shift towards trying to fill the problem up rather than just saying we're going to trap them, we're going to bait them.

19:58 Because obviously we've got something called over here CRU, where you're supposed to basically use the best method, whether that be trapping, exclusion first and then bait last but it obviously depends on which route's most viable but I have noticed a push I speak to a lot of people and they do do proofing, it's become bigger it seems to have become bigger people offering proofing as well because it is it can be a great thing because if you you know, if they've got a broken air vent there we go, 25 plus fat there you go solved it doesn't always have to be hundreds and thousands of pounds does it it does not no and i think also choosing the right materials is going to be key right so too often we see people using materials that are not truly rodent proof right or insect proof just to solve a problem right and they don't have to be you know hundreds of thousands of pounds or you know even thousands of pounds it could be a very simple fix that solves it correctly i don't know if you you've probably seen it but when people use um expanding foam that bugs me yeah i thought they eat straight through it eat straight through it they do they do it's absolutely pointless i joke um that uh foam is a four-letter word in the exclusion industry

21:33 because it's a you know it's it's something you don't want to use it doesn't solve the problem it's easy to reach for it on the shelf right or people use wire mesh right while your mesh also is available very easily on the shelf problem is you know in any of our environments it will rust and corrode it'll come out of place so you want to use something you're selling a solution you want to use a permanent product exactly no you're right you are i've just discovered this product just this year and you're in a lap at me and i went to pestex in london i've never seen it in my life before and it's really good it can fill holes with it it's this product called mouse stop it's really good have you heard a bit obviously i'm guessing you have i have heard of it i'm not super familiar with it obviously it's like product but no it's like um you put it into the hole okay like it's like sticky so the idea is it cures after 24 hours and if a mouse or rat tries to go for it go through it it like they don't like the stickiness so they turn around and don't go in and it recures so yeah it's been around about 12 years because i looked at the old video damn i says i've never heard of this before i did the reason i did i did see it from a distance

22:56 when i was at pestex as well but uh they pulled us in they pulled us in it was like feel he just went he had this kind of pot and he went and feel this i went oh what's that and he explained it and we uh from kill jam we bought we bought a pack of it but it was like i never know what stands to go to sometimes you know probably should have said hello but i never know what stands to go to i don't i would definitely say hello i'm looking forward to it i'm looking forward to it i will um but no it's a it's a good point for you got um there we go i got this one no that's that one then what's the what's the most common entry points on on places that many technicians might miss sure so i think there's there's two or three spots that i typically look at uh you know look um you know the easy ones are underneath the door right underneath the door frame right um similarly around a garage door right yeah but i think the one that we miss a lot is around piping around where a pipe comes into the building yes um you know whether it be a water pipe or gas pipe or electrical pipe there's the opportunity for Ronan to come in because we have to remember a mouse only needs six millimeters to enter.

24:19 They do, they do. I've got one of your, I've got one of your, did you, did you make that little plastic? Yeah, I've got one of them. Yeah, I carry one, I carry at least two with me everywhere I go. Uh, we partnered with Matt Fry, who's a rodentologist out of New York, uh, designed to, uh, you know, hold it up. Okay. Designed to go, you know, with MedFry to show that opening, right? Because so often we think of it and, you know, we have to be able to show our customers. So when I started in the industry, you know, what was my tool?

24:56 It was my finger, right? If this fits in, that means a voting can come in. But we really want to show it in a more professional way because we are professionals. To determine that. And I tell you, when I show a food manufacturer or a quality professional in that realm, that opening, there's a light bulb moment. Because they're like, oh, we've got to address it. It's like the, it's like, what's it called? It's like, yeah, the light bulb moment. It's like a visual, it gives it that visual representation of it actually can fit in there.

25:33 There's one side to a mouse and one side to a rat in it. Correct. Yep. So it's a house mouse on the one side, the smaller end, obviously, and a juvenile Norway rat on the backside. So that's 12 millimeters for a rat. It blows some of my customers' minds. I don't know what a rat can get in there. I was like, yeah, they can squeeze their body right in there, no problem. No problem. I don't say it like that, but I said you want to look it up on YouTube. You'll find some videos. Sure. It's quite freaky.

26:04 it is the way that they can do it absolutely and then you hear all kinds of stories about how they have no bones or cartilage or things like that but uh they they do it just collapses differently well they've evolved over time and they need to uh to prey upon human error that's exactly what they do human error like in the uk like you'd think in 50 60 years houses beat well a lot over hundreds of years sure that when they build houses they'd think about pest prevention in mind and to this day you can buy a brand new house in england and still have rats and mice come in you can't they've not changed yeah nothing's changed nothing's changed and it's the same with uh over here by all means the same over in the us it's the same uh in the manufacturing world as well nobody's thinking about pest proofing the way that we are no they don't it's uh but it it has opened my eyes because i'm i'm testing an app for somebody i can't say who but and the way the inspections are things that he's got in his app to tick off i'm like i can't think of that and they're all it's they're all bits that could go down as exclusion it's actually helped me up my game like look here look there yeah it's because you don't always think of certain things do you look look in certain places to look there

27:38 in all honesty i mean you obviously do but when you're learning it when you're learning you don't right and that's certainly and that's what would help right because i come with almost 20 years experience i've seen some of those pathways i've experienced that but i'll tell you if you go out with a new technician you know they come in with fresh eyes so having that app with a checklist makes a lot of sense yeah yeah no no it looks good it does it's made me it's made me better than what's because what you always we're always learning we are always learning always learning how often do you uh see see doors or loading bays and rolling shutters that become the weakest point in commercial is that pretty common i would say that's very common right so it's very common we see that where a lot of times people put the brush on and they think that solves the problem.

28:33 Obviously, one, it gets collects debris, gets destroyed, gets damaged. But also we see the opportunity where there's people think that's rodent proof and it's not. Rodent means to gnaw and they will gnaw right through that if enough pressure on the building. Yeah, they will. They will. Because I would say it obviously we're on about rodents here but i see it where um basically a load a loading bay they can get birds in so easy because they haven't put the uh what they're called they're like there's like plastic the nuts you know the mat or spiking or the oh the curtains curtains such an easy thing but they forget to do it then the birds are in absolutely I mean, the reality is, and like I was saying before, anytime they cut a hole in a building, whether it be for a pipe, an entry door or a loading bay, you know, there's an opportunity for pests of all kinds to come in.

29:37 When you, so I often joke when I give my presentations, just shut the doors, don't open them, take away all the food and the water and you'll be fine. and usually they get a good laugh because then they're like well how do i do you know my business i'm like well that's a different story exactly i do put that on my uh reports a lot shut the door shut the door but it's hot you know i know they're not gonna listen that's the thing i know they're not gonna listen it's like some of these places are really hot i'll leave the door open Sure.

30:13 This summer especially. But that half the problem I said that this is why you got an issue The door open Right And that it it was literally that was the reason so you always get customers away obviously the places i do they not audited so they wouldn't get any trouble they wouldn't just got to point them out there weren't you document it make sure you're doing what you have to do making the recommendations but there's only so much you could do sometimes there is there is exactly they um there is so is there a level where you would say that how far with rodent proofing do you go because isn't there a line between being a proofer and nearly being a builder uh certainly there is um I would say, you know, and I see some pest control operators, you know, out there and they're doing work to close up every part of the house.

31:13 Right. They're taking metal flashing. They're screening. They're doing some what you, you know, to your point, Sean, heavy exclusion work. And, you know, it's, you know, they're the ones making those guarantees. They're the ones making the guarantees that they're preventing pests from coming in. um the ones that you know sort of do that mid middle of the road where they're doing a lot of work using our products and others you know that are sort of that are more attainable from a regular pest controller right you don't have to have the same skills you're not bending metal it's a little easier at times yeah because some people take it to an extreme where it's nearly the builder level because i've seen places where i said i can't i just can't do that i'm not i've got one at the minute and once i finish it i'm going to recommend they have a builder they're going to have to because it's it's a wall effectively right i can't um that's beyond me to say you're gonna have to i'll get them to mesh it obviously as well but they're gonna have to put stone in you know it's part of a wall and it's beyond me that is yeah it gets to a certain point though where it's like a builder level but some people can do that i think it's important to know your limits right because you don't want to set up yourself um you know to be you know look poorly in the eye of your customers so it's important to know your limits i would also say you know there are resources one of the beautiful things about you know the internet today is the resources that are available

32:48 video libraries and things of that nature right so we have a full video library with you know installation videos to make our products more accessible and i'm sure others do as well so what um what kind apart from the the road the excluded um device where you show rat or mouse what other kind of proofing products do you do sure so we we design a whole sort a range of products designed to road improve uh we start with our you know obviously we have the inspection tool to identify where but the first product that we came up with was our fill fabric so it's stainless steel fill fabric and it's designed to go in those holes right the holes that you identify with your fry inspection tool can largely be filled with our fill fabric so it's stainless steel fibers blended with polyester fibers and can be placed in the hole it's important that they're stainless because it won't rust or corrode like i mentioned before so it's a benefit of regular carbon moyer mesh or copper mesh because it won't rust or corrode uh we're a company that's been making steel wool for over 100 years and this is excluder is one of our obviously our one of our key brands in this pest-proofing world.

34:08 We then took that product and put it into door sweeps. So typically a door sweep or a weather seal is brush or rubber flap, and we'll be able to chew through, as I touched on before by Rodent, right? Rodent to now. This now makes it a Rodent-proof seal on that entry door. And we've got a variety of sizes available to fit just about any entry door that's in a home or business okay we then went to our garage door seals so the loading bays the overhead doors the shutter doors we have our seals for those as well up and around the sides and the bottom and vertically up the door uh loading bay like a pit leveler we also have seals for oh so really that whole area um some of the newer products we've come up with is the universal a escutcheon plate so anywhere a pipe comes through a wall half an inch i'm sorry point or 25 millimeter to 75 millimeters it will expand and go around that pipe right so and the nice thing is that comes apart so the pipe doesn't have to you talked about some of the older homes and in the uk there's uh this certainly fits that fits that because you know the last thing you want to do is take a pipe apart um if you don't have to and then our newest product that i'm very excited about is called the excluder shield uh the excluder shield is a piece of peel and stick sheet metal stainless steel with a full adhesive back and the idea is yep so you're pulling up our website some of these are on there some of them are not i'm just bringing i'm bringing it up which one

35:51 is your newest product on there? Yeah, so the X plate is if you go to shop now and you go to escutcheon plates on the left in the middle Inspection? Escutcheon plates. One more over to the left. Oh, it's got a sewer right. I'll see that. Ah! That's useful. What's that, Sean? That's useful, that is. Yeah, so that's a universal escutcheon plate. So that'll go around any pipe, any material. As you see, it's obviously U.S. measurements there, but that works out to be about 25 millimeters to 75 millimeters to expand and go around that pipe.

36:36 And that does not, and it comes with fill fabric. It comes with hardware to mount, and we just show a couple different style pipes there to address that, right? And obviously you'll see it's available in singles and in multiple packs, which is why you see the price range there. Yeah, that's nice. The newest product is not yet on there, but I'm excited about it. It's a universal, and you can go up through it this way. That's fine. So there's our fill fabric. There's our stainless steel fill fabric.

37:09 Obviously a variety of shapes and sizes that we have available on our website. some of them we have through the UK distributor, some of them we don't but the product is certainly you know, it's there and available and that's designed to be cut and put in the holes just like that picture there Oh, so you don't have with this product, do you have to stick it down or you just shove it in and that's it it's good? Shove it down and that's it Oh nice, okay And because it's stainless it won't rust or corrode That's good, that is that's nice that is while we're talking why don't you go over shop now again i'll show you one more thing while we're on the website go to door sweeps there we go so let's click on the uh the low profile suite and you'll see that you know we have three different styles available based on the size gap with the covers but it's got fill fabric inside of that seal so that's what makes it road improved so the bottom part of that picture you'll see the fill fabric yeah right there where your mouse is exactly where it'll make that a road improved seal and all of our swoops and seals carry a lifetime guarantee against the road and breach if installed correctly that's nice that is tell my client about it I keep pointing out something to him he's not getting the message obviously a few different sizes available a few different options available but happy to answer questions for anybody about specific products we do distribute through all the big distributors in Europe and in the US looks good it does commercial our commercial garage yes you do any four row you do any four row roller shutter doors oh here we go roll that's the one yep oh nice that's good so as you've seen

39:25 through those pictures there is the fill fabric inside of those as well right those have fill fabric inside so that carries the same lifetime guarantee um we would we would support it um by you contacting us and moving on and obviously you'll see some odds and ends pieces there if you needed to build out some kits and some of these are you know like you know we haven't had the ships in the u.s some of it we do have uh in a uk and european warehouse oh nice just thought i'd have a quick look because i've never actually had a proper look you're um with your wire wall can you put that on any pipes that may be hot yeah absolutely you can yep yep certainly can um i would be cautious and i answer this question for somebody if there's any live wiring or electrical conductivity because there is stainless steel wire in there oh yeah cautious about that um but you know around a warm water pipe that should be fine i just thought i'd ask it because you never know if someone's watching but uh yeah always be cautious absolutely um and then you know the product that's not on here is the extruder shield which is the size of a piece of paper size of a piece of regular notebook paper that has a full adhesive back so it can be shaped into different positions you mentioned a builder

40:56 level this is certainly not a builder level you can take your regular shears or scissors and cut it pretty easily and shape it paint it if you need to and your design is a patch okay

41:10 i'll say so so for a situation where you don't need it to yeah so you need a bigger area wider wider area you can just stick it on and it's adhesive correct and it's not a color yeah yeah an outdoor grade adhesive it's got stainless steel so it holds up very well that's nice is that is that is that due for release soon or it is due for release soon i anticipate having it at pestec on the table um but uh good might be there it has not yet been brought into distribution yet in the market, but I'd imagine like anything else, the pest controllers out there ask their distributors for it.

41:56 That's what brings it into their coffers. No, it definitely does. I always like to see a new product and as we know in pest control, there isn't many. In general, pest control shows, I hate to say it, there isn't many, you don't get many new products it shows. A lot of it it's the same, you know, because obviously chemicals and that take years to get approved, et cetera. But you don't often see it. But I had an invention, not an invention. I was at Pest X in London and, you know, that company Birchmeyer, they had a pump, you know, a DR5, they had a battery pump.

42:42 Amazing. It's made Boston. It's so much easier, this summer. It's great. just press the button you're good to go everyone laughed at me because the amount i paid for it but i tell you what i reckon it's paid it's already paid for itself that's key you know absolutely no some of those tools out there um you know i wasn't you know i've been out of the field now for about 10 years or so you know out of the out of the actual field in the truck about 10 years or so and um you know some of that stuff that's come out makes me you know very jealous for the people that get to use it because i was you know i was pumping things up the old-fashioned way oh yeah oh yeah and people watch the podcast i put a video on my page oh you would have thought i'd say i'd everyone telling me most 90 telling me i was an idiot for buying it you don't need that do it with your hand you know no thanks i'm you should do a car tire pump to be fair that's always on board in case the battery's dead um but i think it was the best investment i made so comment down below if you think i'm stupid for that but it worked it worked for us that's key that's key absolutely good because you don't i just thought it were good you probably can get different versions of different companies make them but you know it's it's nice it's when you

44:06 you find a product that helps laziness a lot of it as well but like in the uk it's efficiency right i mean it's time time turns into more work you're able to get on more because you've got the ability to do faster yeah especially in the uk because a lot of people have got believe it or not they've got not all houses but a lot of houses start to do this thing where oh they haven't got they haven't got a garden door no more they've put an extension on sure you have to go through the house to get to the garden so you can literally pump it up in the garden depressure it and walk through the house safely you can so it's it's good it is i think anyway makes good sense it has um there we go oh there we go right here's one you probably know more about how should a pest control company approach pricing exclusion work oh are we sometimes undervaluing expertise involved in identifying and fixing ingresses i would say we probably are i would say we probably are as well i would say as a as an industry we're undervaluing what we can bring to the table right so we mentioned the size of a gap that a mouse can enter right yeah and size of a gap that a rat can enter You know we know that because we seen it right We can identify where the mouse is actually coming through or the rat is coming through you might see hairs you might see sebum right the grease marks where rodents coming through use that that a value right

45:44 you're an expert of where they're coming in um and using the right tools right because if you mentioned before spray foam by the expanding foam that if we show up with expand if we show up with it's available at the hardware store or at the regular shop, then we should be paid. Like we're showing up with the regular stuff at the shop. If we're showing up with the right tools, whether it be, you know, not using our fingers to gauge whether or not a rodent come in, but using an inspection tool, we're showing where the rodents are actually traveling.

46:16 We're taking the time to identify those paths. Yeah. And sealing that up with professional level tools, whether it be tools manufactured by Excluder or others. Yeah. then we should be paid appropriately yeah you're right it's it's uh yeah it it's a good market to be in it is with exclusion it's just we all need to get better as an industry i think um and the way we obviously learning to convey the message of what you sell and what it is solution because and i think the excluder tool helps you can go here you go you show the customer you can it's better than the pencil or your finger i forgot to get my sluder out the other day and i i stuck my fingers in yeah no i mean we've seen all kinds of things we've seen pencils we've seen fingers we've seen cigarettes where people are like yeah you know something's gonna fit it's like well now you know is that the professional no you know the the inspection tools were truly professional no it is it is um you're in quite a few countries now yeah excluder yep so we are we're we're expanding um we obviously have the us and canada we've done a lot um in england we've done a lot in France and Germany.

47:47 We've done some stuff in Asia where we represented at, you know, obviously at Pest Tech that we've talked about and some of the various NPTA meetings that are going to happen next year. They're out the back there then. Yeah. So we've been talking about those as well. Nice. And then we'll also be, you know, over in mainland Europe. so there's the i know there's pest protect coming up uh we're eyeing pair c-tech as well in france is that an expo is that a big expo is that they're both expos yes okay um so looking to make sure we've got a european-based employee in the uk who's um ready to support customers in the uk in europe which is new for us we started that a couple months ago we we brought him on a couple months ago yeah uh four months ago to be able to support our customers in local time which i think is going to be credit was key oh yeah it will be because instead of i don't know say you've got suppliers i don't know they've got a query in the uk they can get hold of him rather than wait until i don't know you wait whatever time you work in america with a time difference so yeah yeah i mean we're six hours behind right so um If you email me at 8 in the morning UK time, it's 2 a.m. for me.

49:17 And I'm probably not going to get back to you until 9, 10 o'clock in the morning, which is now 4 p.m. That's a whole day. So now we're able to resolve those issues quickly and better serve our customers. It's nice. It shows the business is working and it's expanding because it's good to have a product, especially in multiple countries. I bet when you expanded into a different country, was that scary? Were you like, I'm not sure if it's going to work, or was it not? You know, we were confident. We had some success prior to my arrival, to be perfectly honest.

49:55 And we, you know, but we've expanded and we've invested more. You know, scary? I would say not. i'm confident in the product confident in the people the part of the team um so i wouldn't say scary but we are making an investment to make sure we're present for the the us and the for the i'm sorry for the uk and the european market it's a good move it is you've got to be at all these shows and do you ever go to the almighty pest world i'm at press world every year um I've heard so much about it. What's that?

50:33 I've heard so much about it. Because I listen to a lot of American podcasts, don't you? Sure. I always hear about Pest World. It seems like the ultimate show in the world. I don't know if it is. It is the ultimate show in the world. And certainly it's attended largely by U.S. based on individuals. But there is plenty of international people to come as well. And there's actually Pest World East. also, right? That happens in Asia. We'll be attending Festival of East in Dubai in February. Interesting.

51:07 By all means, we're a global company and interested in continuing that growth. That's good, that is. That's really good. So what's the... You must have seen some road and exclusion that you hated over the years without naming people. what's the worst bit you've ever seen i mean i think well uh i was at a facility it was a it was a dog food manufacturing facility yeah um and they had an active rat problem there was an i'm not going to name where it was because it might give away too much but an active rat problem and they used to be talked you talked about foam they had foam everywhere they had foam literally everywhere.

51:54 They had blocks of styrofoam shoved into areas. We identified that one of the mills was one of the main areas of concern. I walked to the top of the mill, and there was no door to get into the facility. I said, not only do you want me to identify, but you have literally a gaping hole the size of a door that allows buildings in. Fix that before we go any further. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. That is absolutely mental. That is.

52:29 The foam. Obviously, I mentioned in no names, but I hear in America, there is companies that spray foam into lofts that claim that they'll keep rats out of your lofts. I've heard all about that. Yeah, absolutely. I'm mentioning names. I've heard all about it. Sure. That is mental. Spray this in your loft. You'll have nothing. I'm sure. So obviously you're going to be at Pest Tech, you are. Are you just doing a stand or have you got a talk or anything? No, for this we have a stand. I do regularly do presentations on the topic of exclusion.

53:13 I'd be happy to put one on for, you know, for NPTA or BPVCA or any of those. But this one we're doing a stand. nice nice um i'll be there i'll be giving the walk i will be giving the bags out i might i have a job i'll be on the entrance i will be you probably see me last year without even knowing were you there last year i was there last year we probably passed right by each other you probably we probably wouldn't know it would mean i i when i'm there i have a mpta coat on okay so i'm one of the people that help but I have got a podcast on at the end of the day and it's seminars floor perspectives I've got a live little panel for half an hour so I've got an in person I've never done that before I'm hoping more than I'm hoping more than 10 people turn up please some more than 10 I'm hoping you know what I'm not leaving till Thursday I'll be there oh cheers are you going PCN dinner I'm working on an invite I haven't gotten there yet but that's my plan I went last year my first time ever yeah but you're so tired though all day long I'm not used to I love it but obviously you help all day doing stuff and then it's a massive rush from the venue to have a shower and that and then you know you go and have your drinks and it's it's it's like a blur the few days are and i'm not used to any of that so it was good but i didn't i didn't stay like all night you know

54:57 it's tiring but yeah i thought it was nice good i did but yeah i'm not i'm not used to that kind of thing but it's something different it is also you're ace yeah you're an ace so tell people they that don't know what an ACE is? So an ACE is an associate certified entomologist. So I've been, so in the world of entomology, there's two options, right? There's a board certified entomologist, the BCE. A BCE is somebody who's got a postgraduate degree in entomology and then goes and takes a test. And nothing against the BCE, but that is what it means.

55:37 If you're an ACE, it means you have some number of years in the pest control field, whether it be five years now, I believe it was seven years when I originally passed my test. And then you collect letters of recommendation from industry experts and you take a proctored exam. And the exam that I took covered both insect biology and covered the business of pest control. So it covered really both topics. And I've been fortunate to, you know, I've obviously passed the exam. And I've been certified as an ace, oh, probably about eight or nine years now.

56:18 So it's nice to have those letters after your name. You looked at it as an expert in the industry, which is a nice little nod. But it means something to me to be an ace versus a BCE because of the field industry experience. And many BCEs have field industry experience, but not all do. Nice. So just so you can clarify You are the only ever Ace person I've had on I have had on Adam Holt He is a BCE He does have field experience There And many do I don't want to speak negatively about BCE Many good friends Who are BCEs as well Nice But no you are officially the first ever ace So thank you on the podcast you are well thank you Sean it's been fun have you got any more tips you want to give to people I'm pretty sure you've covered a lot of them I think I've given a lot of them I would say pest exclusion or pest proofing is pest prevention and I speak to this you mentioned it before I said exclusion is pest management I say it also to food safety people exclusion is food safety because that is where it comes down to it prevention is key oh it is no they're good they're good words they are so uh thanks for coming on have you got anyone i forget to ask this all the time have you got anyone you'd like to see on this podcast um you know you caught me off guard there's a hard to hard to answer that question um i would say you want somebody who's focusing on um you know i know there's some and presence of mating disruption for stored product pests right so i would look at the mating

58:12 disruption and stored product pest work uh across the board okay have you have you ever spoken with anna iverson no okay she's not so much i mean she knows the stored product pests but i would recommend her from uh fly management as well so either one of those topics she could speak very highly of okay if you could send that name in an email i can't spell i can't spell that name if you send me and i'll see if i can sure get her on the podcast at some point she's an industry veteran she's a bce so i'm not going to negatively about bces when i talk about anna but uh she'd be happy to i'm sure she'd be happy to chat you know you know i may have her on my list without knowing i might i have a lot of people i do okay i'm not sure how you spell it you see that's all i'll send it to you later sean yeah cheers for that so uh yeah so thanks everyone for watching the podcast so if you've enjoyed tonight's show please share it with a friend another pest controller technician colleague uh spotify press the um favorite show follow it apple podcast please best follow facebook best follow but yeah it helps the show grow it does so um and if you want to see ben in person and you're in the uk you could come to national pest technician associations

59:43 estech 2026 on the 3rd of november in milton keens i'm just checking actually i've got that date right i'm just checking it sounds right sounds right the 4th of november the 4th yes because i'm going down on the third the 4th of november it is you can register for tickets now it's free you don't have to be an mpta member because someone asked me that you could be a bpca member you can be a member of nothing and turn up as long as you register you can come and have a look around you can there's loads of talks stands everything and you'll get to meet ben as well canada poke yeah all right i'll just end the recording now but thanks everyone so yeah so thanks everyone and i'll see you all next week