Pest perspectives EP 31 - Grahame Turner - Nurture pest control academy - Pest Perspectives

Hello and welcome to Pest Perspectives episode #31 this

week we have on Graham Turner, the Chair Pest control.

Have I got it right, Graham? Not quite nurture pest.

Control, nurture. Done it again.

Goodness sake. OK, I've done it again.

There we go. I was practising before and I

messed it up live. I thought.

I don't know why I have such a problem with it.

How are you doing anyway? I'm doing very good.

Thank you. Just busy as always, but most

have been in some time for you Sean.

Thanks for that. We booked, we booked it quite a

while ago, didn't we? Because I it was about two or.

Three months ago, actually, yeah.

I'll be honest. I'll forget about it by then,

but. Yeah, it always.

Comes around, doesn't it? I'll be honest, I've booked up

till mid-december now so I'm quite booked up the podcast I am

this week. I've got two.

I've got 2 podcasts this week so I have got to go for Girl on

Tomorrow as well from America. But yeah, I enjoy doing it and

people seem to enjoy listening so it helps everyone learn.

The idea is people learn, if they learn something then job

done. It is really learn.

Something, aren't you? That's right.

Exactly. So Graham, how did you get in to

Pest? Now hang on, sorry.

Do you want to give people a brief run through of who you are

and what you do and where you've been?

That might take a little bit though.

I'll give it a brief version. I don't know if I can do it

briefly, but where have I come from?

I suppose I sort of, I had holiday jobs when I was at

school of working on farms and that got me interested in in

sort of animals and the pests. I remember 1 school summer

holiday is actually squeezing the wobble flies out of the

backs of cattle, which is a bit of a strange, strange job.

But that's one thing we did. Obviously those cattle pelts

weren't really good, but I've had big holes in them.

But anyway, so yeah, I was intrigued with with wildlife

from that age. And, and then when I went to

university for my first degree, I studied what was called

applied zoology, but it was basically pest control because

it was, it was zoology applied to agriculture and to medicine.

So we looked at pests of agriculture and pests of people.

So lots of. So we covered things like, you

know, mosquitoes and malaria and that sort of thing, as well as

agricultural pests. And I liked it so much that.

Yeah, yeah. Part of that undergraduate

degree was I was doing an insect collection.

So, you know, even back then I had to collect insects and

identify them, go run through keys, see what they were,

catalogue them. And so that got me more

fascinated in insects. And then I decided to specialise

in that for my masters and did an insect control masters.

OK, It wasn't, it wasn't public health insect control, it was

horticultural. Actually I was, it was in

connected with agriculture and horticulture.

But I specialised in horticulture and then moved on

to a bit of horticulture, you can call it after that, which is

mushroom farming. But the thing that intrigued me

most with the mushroom farming was the massive infestations we

sometimes got of forward flies in the compost and Sierra flies

or fungus gnats in the mushrooms.

So both of those were in were intriguing and I didn't like the

repetition of mushroom farming. It was the same thing each week.

We'd fill one growing cell with compost, we'd take compost out

of another one, and we'd harvest mushrooms and another one.

Whatever. So soon got boring, soon got

boring. I moved on from that to working

for the Welcome Foundation, actually doing research.

And I was, so I was doing my main project there.

It was only a temporary contract.

Well, somebody was on maternity leave.

My main project there was to develop a vegetarian diet for

mosquitoes because they had a this, this branch of Welcome

was, was testing all sorts of new insecticide products on

different insects to see how well they worked.

So we've had colonies of house flies and store point insects

and cockroaches and all sorts and mosquitoes and the

mosquitoes we have been breeding on, on Guinea pigs.

So you'd, you'd put a Guinea pig on top of their cage to feed

them. And we used to use the Guinea

pigs repetitively. It wasn't, you know, they didn't

seem to notice. It didn't seem to be a problem

for them. But the Home Office brought out

a new regulation that we could only use them once because that

was cancer as an experiment. And then we had to kill them and

use another one for the next. Few, but I'll tell my kids they

love Guinea pigs. So that's kind of been expensive

on Guinea pigs and and we didn't feel it was it was right.

So I developed a vegetarian diet to keep the mosquitoes happy.

It was a mixture of a baby food formula and lots of different

amino acids and that sort of thing and that and that kept the

mosquito colony going without having to use Guinea pigs.

So that was that was a useful project.

Then I decided that I fancied working in pest control, having

been working. So I was helping them breed the

store put insects there and the housewives and the cockroaches.

And then I got a job with what was national pest Control and

they then became National Britannia, who became Ecolab.

So it was. It was.

Oh, OK, right. It was National Pest Control, a

national company when I was working for them.

So worked for them for a while and then saw a job advertised in

ADAS where they were looking for somebody to do consultancy on

pest control but also do the the phytosanitary inspections at the

docks of the the grain going for export to look for store point

insects in them. That was interesting.

Was it, was there any, was it quite interesting any, any funny

stories involved in that or interesting stories?

Not particularly funny stories. It was, you know, I remember

even back then we, we were issued with Air Airstream

helmets. So you know, grain and the dust

from grain and insects, whatever it's, it's a hazardous

environment. So we have to wear masks.

And back then it was, it was Airstream, how much we were

issued with because they're a lot more comfortable because we

were spending a fair bit of time in the, in amongst all the dust.

And we were there with with Igrocs, you did regular spraying

of the grain as it was going on the conveyor.

So, yeah, all, all interesting work.

But what I enjoyed most there was the we did a lot of training

on the pest control industry. So Adas, I don't know if you've

heard of somebody called Ed Allen.

I work with him, with Jeff Sanderson, Kerry Coombs, a lot

of people who very talented in, in pest control and together we,

we did a lot of training of the pest control industry and we

actually wrote the original, what's now the British press

manual. It was a dash, it was used to be

the a dash manual. So it was written by a Dash

consultants. I've got a really old old

manual. It's it's like one of them, but

it's like pages. It's like a folder.

My dad got hold of it. It's a that That might be it, if

I can find it on it that. Might be one of the originals.

I have to look it out because he got hold of it.

I don't know how he got hold of it, but give it to me.

Let's see if I can find it. It might be that one.

It might. Be changed since then, yeah.

Yeah, they have. Yeah, because I read it.

Then I've done my RSPH Level 2 awarding press management and a

lot have changed. Absolutely it does.

It needs to be regularly updated.

So yeah. So the BPCA bought it.

I have worked on it since actually because I I I rewrote

the the Bird chapter back in 2012.

OK, very nice. I did.

I did have my name in it for a while, but they then decided to

remove it for some reason, along with all the other contributors

and just had just that Adrian Mayer and and Ed Allen and and

Karen So So I don't get recognition for it now.

I did. I did ask actually about.

I will. Get this clip.

Don't worry, I'll get your recognition for you.

Don't worry, I. Did ask about four or five

months ago if my name can go back in but they've been having

an hour ring and haven't made a decision as yet.

OK. I'm not quite sure why it's

quite such a hard decision, but there we go.

Yeah. So that was, oh gosh, where did

we get to? We got to work.

I then I then saw a job advertised with what was called

network pest Control systems and which was the manufacturers and

distributors of bird proofing equipment.

So went to work as their technical manager designing

products for them. I went through the whole range

of products that they already had and improved them and came

out with new ones. So invented things like the

Avishock electric current. Very nice.

I didn't know you're an inventor, Graham.

You're a dark horse. I did not know.

Wow. That's cool.

That's cool. Lots of, lots of the products

are my design of the bird proofing products.

So, so I worked for them for quite, quite a few years

actually that you know, they were then bought up by PNR

Systems that became Pelsis. Then I moved on to what was

Mighty. Heard of Mighty a lot.

Mighty, we're getting a bit more recent now.

Mighty became Terminix after what Rent to Kill bought Mighty,

but the Competition and Markets Authority said no, you can't

keep, you know, kind of the biggest company buying the third

biggest company. So I'll just put you back up.

So they became Terminix, and Terminix has now become Virgo.

Terminix is gone. Yeah, Terminix is gone.

Well, not in America, but. Has has in the UK.

Yeah, because in America it's called Rent to kill Terminix,

isn't it? Or Terminix rent to kill 1 and

2. So Rent to Kill bought Terminix

in the UK, but Terminix bought Red to kill in America, I think.

Is that way around. Yeah.

So I, I moved on from there to set up my own consultancy called

Pesticuity, which I did for a couple of years doing mostly

field biologist visits and it's obviously to the food industry

on pest control. And then I moved on from there

to the MPTA and I was with the MPTA for a couple of years, took

2 1/4 years before moving on to nurture this cycle.

So that's a pot of history. It's a long career in pest

control that seems from many different angles.

You definitely have. It's, you've worked for a lot, a

lot of different companies. I thought I didn't know how long

you're with the MPGA for. I thought you're with them for a

lot longer than than than that or I I didn't know how long

you've been there. 2 1/4 years I took her from John Hope.

When John Hope decides to even set up his own training

consultancy. They've advertised for

replacement and I moved in then. So that was January. 2 1/2 years

ago now. OK, OK, see, I didn't know how

long you were there for because I, you know, I thought it was a

lot longer, but. We did a lot in that time.

Oh, you did. So yeah, we sort of changed the

accreditation process to make that more stringent and more

beneficial for members, introduced a lot more training,

interesting courses, so, you know, focused on things like

some of the health and safety aspects and the science of

insecticides and that sort of thing.

So yeah, moved on from from what it was previously and it's even,

it's moved on so much more now that Kevin's there as well.

Yeah, the particular new board to keep suggesting stuff, but.

The new board, like yourself, helps as well.

Absolutely. Yeah, but no, it's been a it's

been literally you don't have to have a board meeting to get

something to happen. You can suggest it, certain

people like it and it happened. It's like the new CPD quit is

each month. That was me by the.

Way. Suggesting it, suggesting it.

And that's happening every month.

Each technical trainer is going to make at least one CPD quiz a

month so the content can be built up, built up for members.

So there's nothing new I'm sure, but it's just content for the

website for Pepper members to log in and just do some CPD.

Well, you can, you know, a quiz. You can learn quite a bit quite

quickly because, you know, you have a question and you think,

well, I don't know the answer to that.

I'll look that one up. These quizzes have got videos,

though. They've got videos accompanying

videos. They're kind of like how you did

the Crew ones for the MPTA, kind of like that.

Yeah, so you get a video with the answers 1st and then you and

then you try and remember them for the quiz.

Well, you see if you can remember them.

I haven't done the new ones yet, even though I should have done

because I said, you know, but but yeah, so well, with your

well, there's so much I could ask you really, isn't it?

So obviously you're a technical trainer.

What's your best ways? Because obviously learning is

like, because some people learn in different ways.

What's your favourite way to teach people?

What do you, which way do you think the best way is to teach

people? Obviously.

Face to face, obviously. Absolutely.

I I find. Well, I find doing, doing

training via Zoom or, or the likes, I find incredibly tedious

because you're not getting the proper signals back from the

audience. You know, quite often they're

turning the cameras off and it's, I find it tedious for

myself and I find they don't learn so much that they're not,

they're not quite receptive to the learning.

It's so much better in a classroom.

And so I will do training wherever I can.

Do you do that and you knew in Surrey, do you do that and your

new role, is it all in house? It's not online in a new role.

Is that all? Well, we have to do somethings

online because we're a national company.

Oh yeah, we can't be. Travelling everywhere, but we do

do a lot of face to face. I've certainly made sure of

that. So for example, we're having

meetings with all our staff that originally every quarter so that

we, you know, we have a sort of day with them so that we can

teach them some new things, do a bit of health and safety and and

also cover a bit on other aspects while we're there on

state of service and that sort of thing.

So yeah, I do think it's important for for people to meet

face to face, especially when they're out on the road on their

own all the time. It is important to to meet up,

not just to here training or watch training whatever or

participate in training, but also to talk with each other

because you can learn a fair bit just from speaking with other

pest controllers. You can, it's like obviously I,

I do work with my dad so it's not as lonely, but I do speak to

a lot of technicians that are on the road by themselves.

I speak, I've become friends. So I'm going to meet some of

them, some of them actually at Pestech this year and it's.

A good place to meet people. It is.

I'll meet you as well. Say hello.

I didn't get to see you last year.

Bye. I was busy in the doing the the

seminars for the whole day last year.

I came down at about 4:00 and yeah, that was sort of the end

of the day, really. Yeah, we've thought it's

something I've sorted something different out for this year.

We're sorting the rota out so people can rote around because

obviously I'm I've that's a massive learning curve.

Hashtag as you, you've been through it all, you know, it's

like, but it's not like I thought it's a lot harder to put

together life, I thought, but it's fun.

It is. But yeah, we're going to do a

rota so someone's not stuck in a room all day long and it's going

to be rotors around. So if people get a chance to do

different things and have a look around and network with people

rather than being stuck in one place, so.

Well, I think the excellent thing this year is the is the

cafe is going to make a big difference.

That'll be a good networking place and to get sponsorship

from different pest control companies and they like to to

help pay for your free coffee and things that that sounds

excellent to me. It was.

Yeah. And one of the sponsors was,

wasn't it? Wasn't it?

Who? The chore.

Nurture, you might get it right eventually.

Yeah, we're actually going to take some but.

But because we've got a big department that does house

plants and likes as well. We're going to take a, some

house plants along to, to put around the cafe area.

And we're also taking a, a bug shelter with which is a place

for silver likes of Mason bees, solitary bees to, to, to make

nesting. But, but one of our divisions

makes a lot of those with different companies around the

country for their, for their name signs outside the, the

company offices and the like. We're going to take one of those

along. That'd be good to have a look

at. I will, absolutely.

I'll come by. Oh, here, you've got a stand.

Is that right as well? We have a stand as well,

absolutely. Yeah, that's to, that's to

promote our training and and maybe to, to do some recruiting

as well because we're a massively expanding company.

We're we're, we're taking our new contracts right, left in the

centre. So we might get some interest in

people joining us at the. You might do, it's a lot of

people go usually well over 1000 people.

So you you might get some interest there.

You might. Yeah.

But, but my main role in nurture is, is as the training Academy

manager. So, so we're, we're, we're

working on RSPH level 2. We've had quite a few external

candidates. So we're not just doing for our

own company, we're doing for external candidates as well.

Yeah, because the MPTA them advertise it through through

yourselves. They do as a course people can

do. Absolutely, Yeah.

It's on the MPTA website for people to do RSPH level 2

training. We're also starting doing RSPH

Level 3 training for anybody and this is relatively new and would

be of interest to some people. Is that a nurture offering field

biologist training? But also the MPTA have developed

a certified Field Biologist qualification.

And so you can now do the certified field ball of

disqualification from from two different.

Providers. OK.

I didn't know about that qualification.

No, that is, that is news. There you go.

Yeah. So there is now an NPTA

certified field ball of disqualification.

It's not quite exactly the same as the BPCA one.

It's it's in my view. I'm, I've never done one of them

before, but it sounds interesting.

It's good to have a different one because I think I might be

wrong. You might get people that have

got the BPCO version want to do the MPTA version as well.

You never know, you might want you.

Never know. I can't quite imagine that, but

I think I think there will certainly be a lot of interest

in the MPTA one. It's, you know, it is a, it is a

great qualification because you, you learn about insect

identification, you learn about what's important to the bigger

food manufacturers because that, in my view, that's the, that's

the interesting pest control where you start to identify

insect species and work out where they've come from and how

to, how to do your well. The best thing is to do to to

make sure they don't become a problem.

So that course sounds like, although it is a field biologist

course, it could be very, very good for people that want to do

work at food manufacture as well.

In general, it could be absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely. So, so the course I'm the course

I'm offering it. Nurture is a is a 2 day course.

It's not. You can take.

Place it's, it's one day and then you go away and you have

some homework to do and some practise your, your scientific

names of insects and that sort of thing and come back and we

have a second day. And then the exam isn't held

directly at the end. It's an MPTA exam.

It's not a nurture exam. So that will be whenever the

MPTA hold their exams and that will be that will be regionally

in different locations. OK, yeah, that sounds good.

I didn't. You knew more than me on that

front. I've seen it.

I've seen it in a document, let's put it that way.

But I hadn't seen it talked about elsewhere.

I hadn't yet. But you spilt the bees.

That's some. Hot off the press.

News for you? It definitely is, but I'm sure a

lot of people will want to do it because it's sounds quite

interesting. It does, to be honest.

Yeah, So I'm I'm slightly biassed, but certainly I think

the training that Ioffer is is interesting.

It's a big. I haven't actually done any in

person training with you, but I was on a food manufacturing

course on a on a zoom call once You did a good, you did a good

job then, but I can't comment in person.

I imagine it's even better. I would have thought, could you?

MPA. Well, you're MPTA, you know

you've been MPTA, so you must be gold standard.

There you go. Absolutely.

I I I did enjoy working for the MPTA.

I have to say great recommendation to work with.

That's that's good to hear that is so with all your experience

with obviously your you've done accreditation, you've worked

through all the paperwork that actually probably know a lot of

pest controllers, not always in line with what they should do.

If you were he were to say somebody was to set up a pest

control company, what would you say was some of the tips you

could give to make make their job easier in regards to getting

ahead? If it's like compliance or your

paperwork, is there any tips you could give to for somebody to

get everything right on, you know, the, the, the, the early

startings? I certainly.

I think I think the biggest tip would be to join an organisation

like the MBTA where you've got advice on the end of a phone,

you've got lots of example documents to use, specimen

documents. So you get a lot of support

because if you're starting something new, well, you can

never know everything in pest control.

Even I don't know everything in pest control.

You know, people have been in it for a whole lifetime.

They don't know, they could never know everything in pest

control. So it's always useful to have

somebody else to bounce things off.

So I do recommend joining a trade association.

I do think that's that, you know, the first thing anybody

should do probably. And in terms of documentation,

one thing I noticed a lot with seeing, you know, doing field

biologist visits on all sorts of different companies and, and

doing audits on companies is the thing that lets them down or one

of the things that lets them down is their health and safety.

A lot of very poor safety documentation.

I've heard of people saying cautious assessments.

What I don't need to do that, Why do I need to do that?

Or, or saying, you know, if somebody asked them for cost

assessment, they just give them an MSDS sheet.

Well, that's not a cost assessment.

That's not a cost. You should have one in the full

edition right of what you're supposed to.

There's, there's a lot of lack of knowledge of those and

there's a lack of knowledge of how to do risk assessments, I

find so, and that's why I developed the course with the

MPTA on, on basically risk assessments, crush assessments

and safe systems at work. And it's a, it's a whole day

course. So it, it goes into a lot of

detail on what a hazard is, what a, what a risk is and what a

control measure is and, and basically how to do a risk

assessment because it is something that so many people

are naive on. And I've seen so many very poor

documents. So I do think that is something

critical. It's a legal requirement, OK, if

there are fewer than five of you don't have to have them written

down, but 5 or more you do. And I recommend you, you do for

certainly for any more than one, you know, it's much better to

write these down so that you, you know, what the, what the

company policy is. So I do recommend that.

So that's one thing. And the other thing is to get

your foot, your report format looking good so that that

they're so that when you write reports, they're clear, they're

concise, that the client can see exactly what you're

recommending. So, so that format is good.

And there are, there are lots of different software options these

days. So although it's not my, it's

not my Forte to say, you know what the benefits of each system

are. I would look around at those and

start with a, a software system straight away probably rather

than than handheld forms. Those are the those are the

things that have passed, really. That's funny you should you use,

do you use handwritten ones? Funny you should say that

because I had a chat with Paul, Paul Westgate was on there and

then he'd tell us telling me that although it's good, he was

saying he does obviously audits on food manufacturing and he

reckons that food manufacturers don't generally like digital,

they love paperwork because he says sometimes you can't get

access to the computer and they'd rather have it physically

in the big folder of paperwork. He said that food, a lot of food

manufacturers don't like digital.

That's what he was saying. In his experience, they've had

no end of problems with with digital systems they have.

They they do like folders, but I think you're fine.

They'll prefer it if the report was was typed.

So it's been done on a digital system and they just print it

out. That that is that is what they

would prefer. They don't want to see

handwritten ones. That is in my view, that's

something of the past. And especially when you know

people's handwriting is, is barely legible.

Fine. If you're just doing a domestic,

that's. Probably what he meant, but he

meant you don't like paperwork, so it's all in the folder.

Maybe that's what I mean. Print it off.

That's what you probably meant. Is what they would normally do.

Yeah, absolutely. So, and that's to your question.

Sorry, sorry. Carry on.

I was going to say it's, it's much better.

It's written out clearly. And so you've got your your

findings, your recommendations, your actions and all prioritised

so you can see exactly what what he's doing or the client can see

exactly what he's doing. And As for your question, do you

do you think I use paper or digital?

I think you'll be digital. We are now we we were hard

before. We were pen and paper, diary

paper. But we last tech we went and

seen the team at well loads of them.

My dad decided because he's the boss he is, we were going to go

with the powered now system. So we use that now.

We do. And we started rolling it out in

February because it took us a long time to get used to it

because we're just not used to it.

But now, but dad loves it. We love it.

It's so much easier. And we've just, we've, we've

just just transitioned the last customer to digital because what

happened was he wasn't reading the treatment report.

I was writing in the recommendations if you as well,

if you'd like to go digital because we are now, please

e-mail your because I didn't have the guy's e-mail address.

I had the phone number and in the air he says, I'm so sorry.

I only read the top of the sheet.

I don't read. I don't read it all.

I eventually got him onto digital so I'm hoping he reads

all of it now. Let's.

Let's hope so, yeah. It's not a food compliance

place. It's just a, you know, it's very

small contract. But he was the last one to go

over to digital. And what we found was because

the reason, one of the stipulation was that oh, well,

people won't want to do it. People won't want to do it.

They won't give me e-mail address.

And what we found was everyone was loving it.

They were like, oh, I think this is great.

And he couldn't believe it. He said everyone was handing

over their e-mail address left and right.

He says he thought it was excellent.

I said, oh, it worked, didn't it?

So. That's the way people are these

days. They it needs to be emailed to

them, otherwise it gets lost. You get something on on paper,

you know? I can actually hand some an

invoice to somebody in their hand and they will still say I

lost it with this. It's on the portal so they can

redownload it or look at it whenever they want.

They can. But what I like about the, the,

the digital reports is that A, you can put photographs in so

you can show exactly what the what issues are, what you know

you're wanting them to do, and B, you can colour it so you can

have rag ratings within the report.

They can easily see what the most important things are to do.

Because what you don't want is a whole load of recommendations in

there and it just seems a bit mind boggling to them.

You've got to give them something to focus on, tell them

what the priorities are and and that will help get the

partnership going, help them decide what to do first,

etcetera. Well, our system has been

updated now to an extended pest control report because it was a

little report and now it's up to 50 different reports you can put

in it like. So it's really, really big now

because people are complaining there wasn't enough pages in

there, as in recommendations, it weren't enough.

And well, they've upgraded, they've done what the people

wanted to be fair. So it's a work in progress.

It is. So what Also what would you

would you say it's the future of the industry then Graham, what

would you say apart from everyone going digital, what

would you say is in the in the in the future of the industry

the next five years? Say what?

What can you see coming? I, I think are for it to be

cynical, I could say, well, we're going to lose all the

poisons. We're going back to just having

dogs and ferrets and cats to do our pest control.

Don't. Push it into existence.

I was absolutely gobsmacked that glue boards were stopped because

that was, in my view, if they're properly used, one of the most

humane methods. Much more humane than using

poisons where they go off in pain to die in a corner.

So I was surprised that that glue boards were stopped and I

wouldn't be surprised if they if they get reintroduced if they're

if we're allowed to use them again at some point, but only as

professionals. I think the key thing is to is

to stop amateurs using the products.

They called me. It's a lot of people buying them

from abroad and selling them as different things.

That's the problem. Find them from abroad.

Do they? They're on the Internet here

and. Insect, Insect traps, Graham

They're massive, though, like rat boards, but you know, for

insect, they're for insects. I think it's Scotland, they're

planning on banning the sale of them as well, but whether they

get whether they can still get through by being called insect

traps, I don't know. That'll be an interesting one to

see. In terms of the anticoagulants,

I think we're going to get more stricter controls as it were on

on using them. So we've had, we have the 2

updates to the stewardship. Now if we see the levels of

residues in, in Barnells stubbornly stay as high as they

are, I think we'll need to possibly introduce further

requirements. So one thing I had hoped with

the, with the new qualification framework, I had hoped that we

could persuade the, the BPCA who are, who are leading that

qualification framework review to split the insect and the, OR

the invertebrate, I should say, and the rodent qualification so

that you could have a Level 3 for insects and Level 3 for

rodents. And I think that would have been

useful for two things. One, to have a separate Level 3

qualification for rodents would mean the people who now are

stuck at level 2 safe use to identicize because they only do

rodent control, They would have something else to move on to.

And I do know people who do that.

Their only work on farms, they only do rodent control.

And so all they've got is level 2 safe use to identicize.

So I think it's a bit short sighted on that front.

And the other one that I think would have been really useful is

I think we're going to have to get even more stringent in the

use of anticoagulants in particular, but generally

rodenticides. And if you had a Level 3 rodent

control and then that would give something else for crew to say,

look, now we're going to change it from you have to do a safe

user identicize to use. And the cracklins, if you're

using them for, you know that that safe use for denticide

certificate might only be valid for, I don't know, six months,

12 months or something. And after that, if you want to

continue using them, you could have had to use Level 3.

But with it being only one qualification with the Bridge

Brits as well, it's a bit of a shame because crew can't specify

that now they'll have to come out with another qualification.

I get Level 3 which gets confusing again.

But anyway, that's that's where we are so.

Well, they're in the survey, ain't they?

A consultation about anticoagulants at the minute and

I'm hoping that the trade bodies fight HSC off enough because to

have only Calico cipheral. But what I'm saying is if we

just have like I'm saying it wrong, I know it Calico Cipheral

would be because you know, you have in domestic situations,

it's very high risk to be used because of pets.

It is, although it's good for the what environment, there is

that risk to pets as well. And we've also got to put that

in there and it's higher costs. And although there's risk

factors and also all sorts, it will be devastating to lose them

all. You need, you need different

tools for different jobs. Absolutely the curly Castor has

its place. It's great that it doesn't cause

secondary poisoning. It's great there's no resistance

to it. But you're, you're right, big

worry primary poisoning and some dogs have died already.

So you have to be very careful using it where there are dogs.

And certainly it's something that that nurture we don't do.

We don't. If there's a risk of dogs

getting it. We obviously don't use curly

Castor for all. We have to use the the anti

coagulants in those scenarios. All traps or whatever you want

to do. Yeah, as we know, traps won't

work in every situation. So, but at the moment there's no

alternative to the anti coagulants in my view.

So I think what the what both trade associations are doing is

is spot on. Is, is, is getting member

support to go back to the to go back to the government and say,

look, we just can't lose these. We'll lose we'll we'll lose the

ability to control rodents if we.

Lose it would be like it would be like imagine if we lost them.

Could you imagine the, the, the rat populations in in this

country? It would skyrocket upwards.

It really would it would become drastically bad.

I I believe I might be wrong, but I think we're not at all.

But now what you'll get is, is pest control will go domestic.

Everybody will just have to go out and buy their own glue

boards, which this can still do with because they're not,

they're not doing it freshly. And they can go out and buy the

glue boards and stick them down, can't they?

Off the Internet? So.

I can't see them doing anything to it because they've already

mentioned HSC. Don't want to remove the use

I'm. Pretty confident.

What I mean is the the reason HSC don't want the public to

stop buying it in small doses, it's because they believe there

should be an alternate, a cheaper version of people doing

their own pest control. So if they remove them, they've

got to remove the domestic market stuff too.

So I can't see that them doing it.

But I'm not in charge. I don't know but.

We have to have an alternative to curly cast it right?

It's a great product, but we do need an alternative in some

situations. So yeah, I can't see them

stopping it. I, I highly agree with that.

I back that statement 100% and I hope that I know, I know the

trade bodies. I know, I know the trade bodies.

We fight in their corner because we don't want another glue board

situation. We don't we as many people to

fill in as many surveys as they can to help get the most data to

destroy them. Yeah, I'm not sure where the BP

share up with with this, but I know NPTA have sent out a survey

for members to complete and and not members.

So you can get, you can fill in that survey and every, every

vote as it were counts. So it's it's 17 questions which

are really relatively straightforward as to with all

the different materials. I want to point out with that

survey people has been a little bit of kick off about the way

the questions are worded. Now there's a reason for it.

When you see the final report that gets sent out, it's to put

the data in. It's the the questions are

there's a method in the madness. So just try and answer the

questions as good as you can. There is a because a few people

have mentioned the way they're worded and it's to get the data

to put in with all the information that they've

collected. And it it does look, it will

look good. It's just some of the questions

people felt that there should be a box where you can write your

version of events in it and all sorts.

But it's it's worthy for that way for a reason.

It is. So please spell it out.

It's going to allow analysis of the of the answers and so I'll

be able to be be formulated into that response that's needed to

go to Defra. Absolutely.

But you're on the technical committee, ain't you?

I'm on the technical committee. I'm on which technical committee

you referred to. I'm on the I'm on various

committees. I'm on the the crew working

group for best practise. I'm on the Pest Control Training

and Education Forum group. I'm on the Qualification

Framework working group I'm on. And PTA technical committee.

Well, yeah, I suppose you could say that as a director.

Oh, you are as well. Oh, I thought you were on then

the technical committee. That was all.

And PTA. I think I probably have.

You probably are. Yeah, Yeah, you are.

But yeah, no, it's. So what's your favourite pest

then? Graham, you've got a favourite.

Pest that would have to be microbia roofopes.

I'm probably saying it different from.

It's that. It's that the Latin way of

saying it? Funny you should say that, yes?

Because I have no idea what you're talking about.

It's. It's a little beetle and it's,

it's a meat eating beetle and it's incredibly bright colours.

So it's sort of vivid, sort of greeny and and red Sheens that.

Yeah, it is a it's a beautiful looking beetle.

So that, that one in terms of looks, though not particularly

nice in the fact that it's associated with, with carcasses

and that sort of thing with meat.

But yeah, I find any insects fascinating really.

So I don't like that, I suppose. I don't like the smell of

cockroaches so much. I don't like being bitten by bed

bugs. There's good reasons.

Have you ever been? Have you ever been bitten by bed

bugs though? I haven't, no.

I haven't either. I must admit, when I go to, you

know, some people say every time they go to hotels or whatever,

they'll look under the mattress and behind the headboard and

whatever. I can arrange it.

Just give. Just give Doctor Richard Naylor

a call. I'm sure he could.

He could. He could sort it out for you.

No, I don't think for that. But yeah, I never bother

looking. But I think I I did one LinkedIn

post this year on on mosquito bites because I've had a lot of

mosquito bites this year. In England.

In England? Yeah.

In England. Never seen them.

Have we got ever? Seen them in England?

I've never really noticed them. Wow, OK.

They're not. They're not Dean depressed

though, are they Here? Yeah, you could say they're a

pest. But the people do.

I mean, I might be sounding stupid now.

Do people do mosquito treatments in this country?

Yes. I did.

I didn't know that. Honestly, I've never had anyone

talk about it like mosquito treatments ever.

It ever come up. I haven't.

It's not, it's. Not a, it's not a particularly

big thing. We had, we had an invasion, what

we call it an invasion. We certainly had some, some

mosquitoes of the which ones was it the Asian tiger mosquitoes?

I think it was a couple of years ago, the one down in Kent where

there was a, there was a scare of those that there was an

infestation for one. But we managed to managed to

solve it. But, but mosquitoes are breeding

in various places. So people will use, they

typically use something on the surface of the water.

It's going to stop them breathing or it's going to is

going to kill off the larvae basically.

But I've seen them, I've seen them breeding up in the north of

the UK, have been there for a while, but they're going to be

coming more of a problem with global warming.

When I need to look into this, I am.

I'm not happy. I didn't know, I'm going to look

into this. So yeah, we've I live right down

South now obviously I live which is which is the main reason I

switched from MBTA to nurture was the fact that the office is

about 5 minutes bike ride from my house.

Oh wow, fair enough. Yeah, cycling and.

You've got to come down to Nottingham, long drive to

Nottingham. Well I've been 21 years working

from home so it was nice to have a change and go into an office

and and see real people. Yeah.

I mean, yeah, I did go up to Nottingham, but it was a bit of

a track every couple of months or so.

I've been once on my first MPTA meeting, I went up to, I went up

quite at the tour, Yeah, excellent.

I'll probably go back up at some point, but I do most of it

remote now. The meetings I do, yeah, I'm not

that far. I'm an hour an hour and a half

from from there, so I'm not that far.

So, so yeah, we're, we're you know, I'm right down the South

Coast and we're obviously a little bit warmer here than

elsewhere, but they've been a regular thing.

Even even last night I was buzzed by mosquitoes.

I managed not to get bitten last night, but you know, you hear

that buzzing just going around your head at night time.

It's, it's a horrible. Thing.

How do you say that though? I've got a flytrap, right?

And I actually put it into one of these IDID section things on

your phone and it did say mosquito, but I thought, Nah,

it's a false positive. It's wrong.

So you're telling me now that it might?

It probably was, yes. I just thought that the app was

wrong. I thought it kept saying it and

saying it. I thought that's wrong.

There's something going on there.

We don't have some a few species of mosquito.

In I'll be looking into it now, Graham, you've got you've got

my, you've got my brain my my thinking.

I didn't know no, no other pest controls ever talk about them in

general about doing treatments or anything never comes up.

So you don't. And obviously there are much

bigger problem overseas where you have more diseases that are

spread by them. It scares you.

Malaria. Malaria.

Malaria, dengue, chikungunya and all sorts of things overseas.

We haven't got the mosquitoes in the UK at the moment that will

spread those. We have got mosquitoes that will

spread West Nile virus and luckily we haven't had an

outbreak of West Nile virus, but they've been outbreaks over in

America. It's the same as disease.

With deaths from it, yeah. So we've got mosquitoes that can

carry that species that can carry that.

From memory, I think we've got about 13 species of mosquito in

the UK. I can't be totally sure on that,

but yeah, so we have got species, but what we do get is

we get occasional ones coming in on aeroplanes.

I know they, they're quite often sort of do treatments on

aeroplanes to prevent them coming through.

But you might get the odd ones coming through with people on,

on planes sort of around airports.

And certainly the ones that came to Kent, they they possibly came

in, I don't know if they came in on vehicles off, you know, that

came on ferries across the channel or something.

But that's but we could, you know, we could start getting

more mosquitoes. OK, Well, I'll be looking into

this now. I will be, absolutely.

I will definitely will be. Who is once.

Yeah, it's a quick no, sorry. Carry on.

I was going to ask you another question about something else.

I was. I was just, I was just going to

carry on saying that we're getting more insects in the UK

now. We will, I think the the yellow

legged Hornet or Asian Hornet, whatever you like to call it,

Vesper very Tina. I think that will become endemic

at some point and that will be a thing that the pest controllers

do, not just a unit. I think within the next 12 to 24

months, I think they'll make defeat and say let us do it

because we're more not being funny, but we're more qualified

in what's Ness. And I know it's not the same,

but it's the same method. I believe that they will hand it

over because it's going to lose. They're going to lose control.

They would have I think, but. I don't think that'll be down to

their skill as pest controllers. My view is that they know what

they're doing with getting rid of these Hornet nests.

They're, they're, they're obviously outside so that

they've, they've been using Vulcan for a couple of years

now. They they, they sort of spike

into the nest and, and distribute the poison throughout

the nest. They are very good at doing the

control. So I wouldn't put them down on.

I will say that though, but if you look at other countries that

have lost control, they're following exactly what all the

other countries did, and they all lost control.

They did, but they're, they're doing the same thing, aren't

they? New Jersey lost control.

South of France lost control. They all lost control, didn't

they? And they're all doing the same

thing. I don't know.

I don't know that we would do it any different from how the

National Union is currently doing it.

To be fair, no, you're, you're right.

To be fair, it's the same method, isn't it?

So there's, there's no way you could do it any differently.

So yeah, I'm wrong. Sorry people, no it's not.

That you're wrong, I think, but I do think you're right in the

fact that that they'll lose control and it'll become an

endemic pest that we have to that, you know, pest controllers

are tasked with controlling. Be more problematic because it

won't be as cheap as a wolf nest because some of these nests are

like 8200 foot high ain't they? Like in trees and stuff.

But quite a lot of them are quite high up, so you might get.

High in trees, they have secondary nests as well, So and,

and and the vicious animals. So yeah, you need specialist

equipment to to get high enough in the trees to do them, Yeah.

They're not always on trees, sometimes they do end up in

houses, but I've seen some videos and a lot of them are

very, very high up. They are.

But yeah, it'll be new pest for us at some point, Graham, I'm

sure you'll want to have a go at taking down an Asian hornet's

nest, won't you? Did you get European?

Hornets up with you. This year probably fruited 4

nests, not a lot, yeah, not we don't generally get a lot. 1

year, few years back we got about 15 in a year and that's a

lot that is. 15 European Hornets.

That's good, but. That was the first.

That was a few years ago though. That was they share property.

For the rest there was nests. Hundreds.

I think it's a bit in some ways a bit sad killing off European

Hornets because that they, they don't generally harm us.

It's only if you disturb a nest and the nest are generally out

in the woods and that sort of thing.

Problem is the nest. The nest where I've treated have

always been right near the house.

As in endangered proximity, it has.

They don't like to bother us, but if they do, they are they

can pack a big a big punch because they're.

They are like animals, aren't they?

Because I don't I tell people they are like softly natured but

they're not like a wolf who will fling for you unless you unless

unless you attack a all its nest or attack a hole in general they

won't go for. You the wolf, will they?

Can they can, yeah. Did you see a lot of European

Hornets in your neck of the woods then?

We do, yeah. So my next door neighbour had

one this year. I've never been fortunate enough

to have one. I did in 23, so last year I had.

This year I had one wasp nest, last year I had none.

The year before I had five in my house and garden.

Did you treat it? Didn't treat any of them, no.

If I get a wasp in the house, I put them outside.

Oh, she just leave them alone. Yeah.

What's next there? Sorry.

Do you leave the wasp nest alone on your house?

Yeah. What happens if it gets to the

danger point where they're coming in your house and they're

in the plaster board? We get it done then if.

They're in a plaster board or something.

Yeah. If they were bothering us, I

would, but generally for me, they're a beneficial insect

because they, they'll go and take the caterpillars off my

cabbages and whatever else. I do a lot of vegetable growing

and well a bit when I get time and and and they're a predator

of of other insects, so. You're right, they are.

They are. They are nature's pest control.

I do know they are beneficial. I get enough people on my own

post tell me they are to the public.

I'm always nice to people. I say I know they are.

I just do it for public health reasons.

But. If they're in the wrong place,

yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah, because I've got an awful coming on.

At some point she wrote a book on Wasps.

We I think it's a Beautiful World of Wasps.

Serena Summers, Summoner. I'm probably saying it wrong.

Yeah, she's coming on the podcast soon.

She's like a wasp PhD in it, basically.

Yeah, she wrote a book on it, but she's very clever in the

Wasps department and she loves Wasps.

But she will come on the Pest Controllers podcast.

It's been on the booties and Beasties last year.

He's agreed to come on mine this year.

To watch won't. It it will be for people it will

seeing as everything's changed this year with regards to what

you can use as I've only had a few callbacks this year so it's

not been too bad for the change. We have had.

Have you had callbacks in previous years?

Has the rate of callbacks gone up a fraction?

No, no, that's good. In general.

I didn't really get many many with ICAM because of how good it

was, but I've had a few with because I'm using at the minute

deadline. Pi does pro I am and so far it's

so far I've had good results. Few of them I've had to go back,

but I wouldn't say it's been tonnes.

I'm using Deadline Pydus Pro. That's a natural purethrin

that's far less harmful to the environment than than Ben

Dyacarb was. So that's a that's a positive

thing. But yeah, it's being a natural

purethrin. It'll breakdown quickly in the

environment. Yeah, it's, it's been all right

so far. But then some people say it's

crap, but I don't know. Some people saying yeah, it

break, not many call back. Some people saying oh it's

rubbish, I suppose it's the way you applicate it.

I don't know what to say, but it's been good so far.

It has. The key thing do you do you aim

to get into the nest? Yeah, I aim to get into the nest

if I can. Obviously, obviously, obviously

you can't always and 5050 whether it works, but a lot of

the time it generally works. But but yeah, it's been an

interesting year. But I don't moan about different

chemicals. It's the way it is.

We're going to have to get used to chemicals being removed and

you're having to use other products.

It's just the way of life, the way of the pest control

industry. There's no point whinging about

it. It would have been nice if Vicam

D stayed, well, stayed, stayed around for life, but it is what

it is. It is move on and you and you

adapt. You adapt, you adapt, you do.

Over the years lots of much more harmful chemicals have gone by

the wayside and I'm very thankful for it.

You know, the likes of the, the organic phosphates that are

highly, highly poisonous to people and we can't metabolise

them at all. So it's led to a lot of nerve

poisoning of people, especially the likes of farmers.

You've got chic dips on the, the skin, that sort of thing.

So yeah, we've, I think generally it's a benefit to move

on and use the, the less harmful products.

I know we could metabolise Bendacar but it's still, I

imagine it was it was withdrawn for reasons that it was a bit

more toxic than other products. I think, I think they tried,

they tried a few times for HSE to try and get it through and

they just said if you try again, we're just not going to let it

through. Don't matter.

This is what I heard on the Grapevine, that no matter how

much money you spend on lawyers, you're not going to get it

through. So I don't know if that's true

or not. I don't know.

I just hear hear rumours. But they decided not to proceed

and just just remove it. There's no vicams left on the

market now, is there? The Vicam W is gone, Vicam D is

gone. There's no other vicams about,

is there? There's.

No other vicams though. That's it.

The Vicam has gone from England. No more been done.

Yeah. So it doesn't amaze me.

There are so many different synthetic peritroids and they

all have, you know, they could be resistant to to 1 but not two

others. It's amazing that, you know, we

just got so many all so similar. But but where we can, I mean in

in nurture, one of our main sort of reasons for being raised on

d'etre ethos, whatever is that we try and do things as

environmentally friendly as possible.

So we're, you know, we're we'd go for like yourself, the

natural perithrines where we can instead of going for the more

toxic products. And that's what we aim to do, as

much non-toxic control as we can.

Yeah, Yeah, it's a lot of bigger.

No, because you're obviously a national company.

They do. They do generally try and go the

eco approach anyway, but I think in general a lot of pest

controllers are trying to be if they can.

More eco friendly if they can, but obviously the situations

where you can't use that product and you've got to use something

else. But it's case of they try to do

their best, don't they? And if they you have to use a

certain product, you have to use it.

It is the. Key thing is to avoid using

products where you can. So you get your clients doing

the proofing, doing the housekeeping as with you know

that is that is the biggest issue often with press, isn't

it? Is the is giving the the client

to do their part, to play their part in it.

Or to pay for the proofing to actually be done.

A lot of them don't, but I'm not.

I don't want to pay that. So it's not a lot you can do.

I'm not the best salesman in the world, but I do try.

I do. But yeah, I won't don't want to

take any more time up. I know you had about an hour

tonight, but it's been, it's been good to have you on.

It's good, been good to good to speak to you again.

We will meet in person in November in at Pestech.

We will. I shall definitely be at

Pestech, absolutely so. I will be there for two days.

I will be. I'm staying in hotel for two

nights, so I'll be there. I'm doing the meals too.

It's all new to me. It's all new to me.

Never been to any of that. Before that's a very good

networking event is going to the the PCN dinner.

Yeah, my wife's coming with me as well.

Yes. Oh, right.

Yeah, she'll be helping too. Yeah.

We will. She'll be helping you say.

Yeah, she'd be helping with because you know, Martin on the

on the board, his wife helps as well at the paste.

Sorry. Yeah, yeah, I, I thought you

meant she'd be helping at the Pestech dinner at.

The no no, not helping time I'm. Waiting to get the tables or

something. No, no.

I meant, I meant in the day at Pestech, sorry.

Absolutely, yeah. It's good to have you on.

Do you want to, do you want to plug the do you want to plug the

Academy? No.

Yeah, if anybody's. Interested in in any aspect of

training then the way I'm running the Nurture Training

Academy is to offer training not just our own technicians, but to

you know, we've got spare, spare seats at the table at any of our

courses to to make him to make more more viable, more

interesting. Then I'm inviting external

people that whether that be to safe use for denticides.

Level 2 in pest management, as it's currently called Level 3 in

pest management and field biologist training.

So that the the Level 3 pest management.

I think we've got three external people coming on our next course

and the field bologist course I'm running in, in a few weeks

time. I've got two external people

coming on that. So yeah, it's, it's, it's open

to all. If anybody wants them, wants to

join us, then do get in touch. And it's not just held at at

Ringwood, that's a great training venue, but held in

other places such as the MPGA office at Nottingham.

Yeah, they're starting to use that now.

They are the office for training.

So what just just a quick one. So when you're not doing

courses, actual courses, what do you, what do you do other kinds

of training or do they have you got other roles you do as well

or? It's, it's just training, just

training a lot too. Training to develop a course is

a lot of work. I do, I do other bits of

training for other people. So it's not just internally.

So for example, and I can't remember what it is about two

weeks time I think it is I'm doing a presentation for the

site of food hygiene technology on pest management for them.

I do the bits of work for the likes of high field training, so

you. Still do work for them.

Nice, yeah. So there's the, you know, I

wrote the the pest control chapter in in hygiene for

management, that book that, you know, the food industry uses a

lot and hygiene supervisors. So I do bits of writing.

I do training for for other people.

I've been still do the odd field biologist visit.

So last week I was up in, I did meetings for our guys up in

Nottingham and Leeds and Newcastle.

And while I was up in Newcastle I did a couple of theobiologist

visits just to keep my hand in. So yeah, it's, there's plenty to

do. It's a, it's a growing company

and there's, I can always help out with helping out, sort out

policies, procedures as well as, as, as well as training.

There's, there's, there's. I'm not going to get bored, put

it that way. That's good to hear that's what

you want. That is absolutely nurture,

nurture, pest control. Is that correct?

I've got it right. Yeah.

Brilliant. I am sorry, Nurture, I'm

terrible with names. I've got it in the end.

Nurture Pest Control Academy and Nurture Pest Control.

I've got it. But people know I'm real.

I don't mean to say it wrong. I don't.

I say other names wrong as well when I'm not used to saying a

certain name. But thanks for coming on,

Graham. It's been great.

Have to have you on. I really appreciate it.

But thanks for watching everyone and we'll see you next week.

But yeah, thanks Graham, and please share the show out, give

the review on all the apps, Spotify, Apple podcast people.

And thanks for Graham for giving up his time.

It's been a it's been a good one.

So thank you. So if you say I'm putting the

second grammar or in the stream, I will.

Alright, thanks everyone. See you next week that way.

Tonight's Episode