Pest Control Careers for Young Technicians: NPTA 5 Under 25 | Farrer Moore

0:01 Hello and welcome to Best Perspectives episode 41. We should be live on Facebook, LinkedIn and YouTube. Currently this week we've got on Barrymore from Shorkill. He took part in the first round of the scheme called 5 Under 25. That's it, 5 Under 25 scheme with the MPTA National, that's technician association in association and partnership with Syngenta. And I thought I'd like to get him on because he's a young guy in industry and he really absolutely done a good job on the beauties and beasties.

0:45 He was inspiring. It was how you doing mate? I'm all right. How are you? I'm OK, cheers, we've got it sorted. Yeah, finally got sorted. Few technical difficulties, but yeah. Yeah, the second, the second one was mine. I gave you tomorrow night's link instead. So yeah, sorry about that. Yeah. So before we go into the scheme you're in what? How did you get into pest control then? How did you start in pest control? Well, it's a family run business, so Dad started it. We've got about 30 odd years ago now.

1:23 Yeah, it started with a 10 pence piece and to sit on the choke of an old police car as a van back in the day and started from there. And then it literally just took it by storm. And just we are where we are today. And obviously my mum is a massive help as well in the fact that she come on board a few years later. And just I think it's more that them to just work together. Well, I've worked together for for many years, been together for years and they've just grown it now and then. It was more the fact of when I was, I've been in the van since I was like since I was 8 years old.

2:14 You've got to, if my dad used to or my mum used to drive the van, drop me off quickly. And then after cricket, it was still light till 10 O clock in the summer. And my dad would go do a few more wash jobs sitting there with my fruit shooting packet quavers and just watch the world go by us in the van. And then it was more locked down. Obviously we were classed as a key workers. Obviously we've got the proper key workers and then you've got the rest, which we were that. So I just went out my dad in the van and then after that my dad was actually going to sell the business.

2:54 Mum and dad decided that they just had enough of it. And then I just kind of went to him look like I'd love to just take it on one day and grow it to where go outgrow it sort of thing. So it's more it keep it family, family business, but like, you know, just grow it and put my ideas and my spin on it. And then ever since then we've looked back now and just, yeah, it's been going, been going well, busy, busy, more busy than ever to be honest, which is really good. So yeah. No, that's good to hear.

3:26 So are your mum and dad still involved or at all? Or or. Not yeah, the the lot like the my dad will always be involved even on his desk that he'll still be shouting down saying this is what you need to do and stuff. But yeah, no, he he's took a back seat since I've done my RSPH level 2. He's obviously they've got a house in France, so they've moved to France. They still come back and forth, don't get me wrong, and still have like my mum's here making sure all the accounts are up to speed and stuff like that.

3:58 I can do it. But just my mum's been doing it for since forever. So yeah, no, they're still, you know, it's really good to have them around as well. Obviously I can go to them with anything ideas. And they say, yeah, you know, it's down to you now sort of thing and you know, put your spin on it. But yeah, no, it's still still around. Not as much as there was before. But I think that's kind of good for me to obviously do my proper, do my own spin on it and not rely on them to, because I've learnt from the best, then I'd see them to as the best.

4:34 So I've learnt from, I've learnt from anyone better. So in that perspective, starting from the very beginning to now obviously had help with the MPTA, yeah. And the the schemes and like this 525 that we'll get on. So that that's been a massive, massive help in this this just over this year has been massive. But yeah, no, they're, they're still around, but. Yeah, it's good to hear he's he's saying evening. Last time I've seen him in my chat under that account. Anyway, there you go. Thanks for popping in, but no, that no, that's, that's good to you've been in a lot longer than me.

5:13 Then I only felt pest control. Well, I, I properly went on to

5:21 it was locked down. It was, it was after lockdown, after the furlough when they were sending people back. I was like, but that's like, do you want to come on? And I was, I'll be honest with you, I was, I was quite scared because I didn't know if we were going to find enough work to make it work for both of us. But we did. And it's the best move I ever made because I wish I was in pest control at your age, because I yeah, because I would have found a job. We actually liked the career. I mean, I hated what I did previously.

5:59 There's a few people in there. Thanks Jenny Wilson on link on Facebook for coming on and Adam on LinkedIn was nice to meet you. Best tech mate. It was but yeah, there's a few people coming in to to watch it. But yeah, no, no, that's, that's good to hear.

6:20 So, so we've obviously you transitioning into taking over what have you What, what have you had to learn as in, I know you know pest control, but is there any factors of business you've had to learn in what? To do like. Accounts or anything like that just. How to basically run it sort of thing like like I say, I've still got the help from mum and dad, which is good more more responsibility like or have you chased this person for payment? If you chase this company, have you made sure your Diaries and all you know that sort of like that.

6:54 And I do that anyway. But I started already side like I'm already thinking I'll finish work and then I'll load it. I can't even switch off because you're always thinking about the next day and then obviously on the Sunday when you've you've had like, you know, you've worked Saturday and then Sunday's your only day off and then you're thinking can't really relax because I'm about to work on Monday. So yeah, no, a lot of factors into the fact that you've always on the go, you can never switch off.

7:21 Like obviously it's different with a day nine to five job sort of thing. You work in an office after the five O clock, you can just shoot off home that, you know, if I get a call out at midnight and someone's in desperate needs, you have to go out. So you're always on, always on on the go. So I think I've that's the biggest thing is really finding out that you can't switch off from this job, which is I don't mind it because obviously keep your mind in over so you're not you're not bored and I don't like to be bored like doing things, doing this, doing that, you know.

7:56 So now I think that's a big factor of finding that out. But I found that transition quite not easy, but quite relatable. That understandable if that makes sense. Yeah. So it wasn't too bad. That's good then, I mean, because obviously I'm kind of not exactly in your position yet, but I will take over. Even though I'm a director, I'm still not the overall boss. My dad is and I work with my dad. He's away this week though, so I am in charge. But but yeah, so I I will get that transition eventually.

8:33 I will. So yeah, I just watched that. What you thought on it. It's. I think once it fully happens for me and my mum and dad fully go, then I think it'll be a bit different. But for now, I think what they're doing is the right thing is by taking the toe out the lot and then they're not fully, you know, not fully going because the step. But I think even when I'm 40 odd and that I hope to be on a scale of where it's just unrecognisable to what it is now does come in and show their own fault. That's the goal.

9:07 Like like I say, I think a good factor for me is my age as well. Like I've got you, are you now think back in my dad's day, it was very much you. He was still doing paper. Now we've got system software. Now you've got you can I think I've learned that Pestech. Well, I know what Pestech. I saw it. There's an electrical box, you know, electrocutes the rats and stuff like, and then I would say about I think it's anti semic. They was I speak to from their massive, massive company. They they've got that in place.

9:42 But yeah, I think a big factor though, as well as something is a bit of change because obviously the industry always changes, bring out new poisons and bring out new legislations, new laws. And for me, at a young age, you can kind of grasp onto it, but you can learn different things. And in that in sense of like if a new law come out, you know, it's straight away you abide by it. But someone that's been doing it for years, it might take them a bit of a different transition so to understand it, if that makes sense.

10:13 Yeah, no, there's, there's because obviously recently we've had a lot of changes and yeah, I know in a chat some people might say, oh, but yeah, things change, don't they? They, it's not been difficult to do like get you crew points. It's, it's their course is online. You can do, it's not that difficult to do. There's there's always changes though, but there's not many. I know there's not many new baits that come out really. But I mean as in there is baits, but there's not many new actives. It's like very rare for a new.

10:44 Active to come out. It's just just. Different mix different mixtures and different, but it's like the I heard it was once in every time there's a new proper active. I don't know where I'm not a doctor. I don't know. I heard it was once in a generation. They make like, you know, like you have thick when you go to the doctors, that thing they hate giving you make you better. Oh, antibiotics, they reckon. They reckon that there's a new drug like that once every 60 years, they reckon. It's that that much they reckon?

11:19 I think it's more the the laws of it that I think I meant by it's like now the the I think what they will eventually try and put in is you can't poison. It's just going to be trapping but and more humane things. But really it's just that I don't think there's never going to work so, but that that's what they'll probably eventually lead to. I know, I know there's certain lobbyists in the EU pushing for it. There is, but it has, it'd be very difficult because the amount of scale that this country's got, it's different if we had a, if we had a tiny population of rodents, but we we haven't.

12:02 We don't. We have a lot, a lot and a lot. And you've also got trap shyness at the same time, so it depends how you trap. But yeah, you are right, it does look like that's what they're eventually trying to push for. You are right. It's just, I think I think people obviously have their own opinion on it like people do obviously I've, I've been to plenty of jobs where they said, oh, you know what you're going to do your trap, it will know we use poison. Oh, well, I don't think that's humane. I've got them glue boards.

12:34 That's the best one. I've got the glue boards. I said, oh, OK. Well, I said, do you want me to tell you a bit of a fact about them? And they go, oh, go on. I said, well, you know, a rodent traps itself on a, on a glue board to break itself free or to its own feet. It'll to its own tail. It'll try a wiggle out and at the end of the day, it's going to do more damage to the road and and that's not very humane. You're going to walk in, have your Cheerios in the morning and there's going to be a carcass there.

13:01 And then the rats, another rats, you know, trapped by. It's not going to be a pretty sight where out of sight, out of mind, underneath kitchen planes, you know, sort of thing with poison or trapping, you know, you don't really. Yeah, we use a mixture trap some poison. It's the you know, we use a mixture. But then I just think the drop on the face when they didn't even they don't even know and it's like. Well did you say though? And also these are illegal for you to use. They are. This was back back in about 3 years ago before the law even come out.

13:34 Now I've been through a few jobs where now they're actually, the packaging is different and it's an insect trap. You know, they're doing the insect thing. They've just changed it to, it's just mental, but they're trying. They can get away with it. So where'd you get that from? Amazon, the best place. I said, all right, OK, well, I told them the story and then they said, OK, get rid of the glue bars. Now I said, yeah, that's absolutely fine. No, he he's just said that they don't use Madenta science in domestics, so you must just use traps only so.

14:04 That's fair. It's. A mixture. Mixture different, different people's opinions, if they're getting a good come back on that and they're getting positive results of trapping, then that's obviously everyone. Everyone's got their own opinion on it and what they're and whatever works for your business or works for you. But for me, we've always just, we've poisoned. So we've always seen a good kick back off that. We've always seen a good result of that, so maybe in the future we will trap Black. Cats are good.

14:38 They're they're normally quite good with licorice, all sorts. They're usually quite good. We get quite. I've also seen it where, I don't know if you've ever seen this, where you've got a trap and all that's left of the rat is the nose. That's where where the other rats have actually eaten the rat. It's it's weird, but if we just see the TAFE bit, the end bit is on the on the black cap Weird. It's docking dog. In their world, it's docking dog. It definitely is. It is. So how did you get to find out about the MPTA 5, the 25 scheme with Syngenta I?

15:26 Think I saw it on the Internet and then my mum. Mum said, oh, that would be quite up your street. And then I've seen it and I thought yeah, it would actually be up my street because you're getting support of MPTA and you're going for a level 2IN RSPH which will benefit me massively. So I thought, well why don't I just apply and if I don't get it, I don't get it. But at least I know I've applied and I know I'm trying to grow. So yeah, I applied and then I got an e-mail back saying that one. Love an interview off?

16:03 Me. Yeah. So what was that like to have an interview? What? What kind of things did he ask you? They were, they were just asking what drives you to be, you know, what drives you to be in the industry. How did you basically just the same questions that you're going to ask is like, how did you start? What do you see in the future? Where do you see yourself go into like grow into and I just answered all that the same I'd answer every other time is that it's a family run business. I've been in the van since I was 8 years old.

16:36 I've learned a new picked up bits, but I just needed something that I could put my name to a qualification with the RSPH level 2. Like I've got the principles of insects, insects and rodents back in back in the day I got them and then this was now for me to grow is try and look at other opportunities. And MPTA was the one that gave me the opportunity really. So I think, yeah, I owe a lot to MPTA that they've they've helped me and they've got good people there that will actually pick up the phone and ring you and say, how you doing?

17:14 How's this, How's that? And I've got a course coming up about bird work, like Mark when Whenman, what's his last name? But it's. No, that's right. That's right. Yeah, I think he'll hate me. He will text me after this saying you got me Butcher, my last name Ron. But yeah, Mark when he's, he's been brilliant throughout the process because I sat the exam I got about 3-4 week ago just I've found out my results in the next couple of weeks. I've not found out yet then, no. No, no, not found out, but it's a long process.

17:46 How how to find out? It's it's a bit. To be fair, I mean, I bet you find out before the average person does, but like, I bet you get it back a bit faster. Yeah, I've played ages for mine. I've. Yeah, I waited ages. I did for mine. I think it's never been tracking to 8 weeks and I was like oh. God, that's no, no, that, Yeah, no, that was about mine. So it's about average, that is, yeah. So find out that but Mark when has been brilliant Kevin Lawrence as well and the over 525 as well. Sometimes you'd like.

18:19 I'm a bit nervous finding out who the other people are that have doing this scheme. But all the other people. I think they need to jump on this podcast because I've done 2 now. I don't think they. Haven't you? And now you've got Will, you've got Jess, you've got Maddie and you've got Ellie. So now they're all brilliant and they're all, it's all similar that I think that's what really ties us all together. Like it's all family run. We're all doing different bits, like we do different things. Like I hope they don't mind me saying, but Jess and Will don't really do much bed bug jobs compared to me and Ellie that we do a few bed bug jobs and Maddie as well.

19:01 So like it's we can all help each other sort of thing. So I think that's what's quite good with the scheme. It's. Not it's nice to hear it. So when you when you when you're training, do you have any on Is it online training with them all today that does Mark Mark or Duncan come and see you? Is it all? Is it all online or? So Mark just dropped me as a Zoom, a Zoom meeting link by e-mail and say I'm free Friday. Love to go through a few bits. So I did a few. I did. I think I did about a month's worth of just going through with him for about an hour and a half an hour, just going through different bits with him and he was testing me and saying, do you know this?

19:46 Do you know that? And when I was replying, he was like, good. And then he was testing me on things that probably never heard of. And then he was just explaining things. So I think that's also a good thing about the 525 as well. They're not just. Not going to help you. They are going to help you when you've got any like it is a big exam because obviously once you get your level 2, you can push for your Level 3 field biologist, all that sort of stuff. But they don't want, they don't obviously want you to do bad or fail.

20:15 They obviously are with yourself. Feels like you're getting that support and I got that support definitely so now. It's good to hear because obviously when when we would, obviously I'm on the board of the MPTI. When we were talking about it, they didn't, they didn't think they'd get a big response. But I said to them, I knew there'd be massive response because it's a great scheme. But you're also saving yourself money, Farah, because it's not cheap to courses for the RSPH level 2 awarding pest management view.

20:46 I'm surprised it's not common. It's like he hates people. Keep going. Level 2, RSPH, Level 2, it's on the day course or the normal or the long or the proper course. It causes no arguments between pest controllers. It does. The fact there's two level twos, it does. But no. Yeah, but you're right. It's good you've got that support because what? See, I don't do a lot of bedbugs. What nailed me on my course was it was I didn't know much about cockroaches at all. At all, and that's what got me. It doesn't mean it doesn't mean the invertebrates and was I've had second time round, but I I just didn't know enough, you know, to get in my brain because obviously when I did it, I did it for a day, a day and a half.

21:39 Then I had my exam. So he he didn't go in quite right. It didn't mine wasn't like yours. I didn't have all, you know, background support and, and also that kind of support, which sounds fantastic to be honest. It does. Yeah, no. So the training process, obviously future people are watching. You've got why did, why we did it. So Will did it straight off the back and he passed it and I think Jess did it straight off the box rather than both of them have passed it. So it'd be nice if we all get the the pass, you know, of the first of the 25.

22:17 It'd be nice, yeah. Be nice, don't don't put your pressure. You suck yourself under that pressure though, because it's it's quite I've every confidence should be fine. Yeah, but no. So we did two days on. So it was Monday, Tuesday and then you had, it was the week after Monday, Tuesday and then the week after that, Monday, Tuesday and then the Wednesday was the exam. So you had a bit. You got a lot of you got a lot of time. You did. I said hang on. No, I got about the same actually. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking second time round because I was doing resets.

22:53 Yeah. First time round. Were they were they full days? Yeah. So that was from half 8 till about four O clock half. Was that a kill? Did you go killed you? I'm. Trying to kill Jeremy also and it's only 25 minutes away for me so it's. That's good for you then. Yeah. So it's quite central, which was good. But yeah, no. So you did two days on and then on the that Friday I had a bit of catch up with Mark. So and then he did the Monday, Tuesday after that. And then the Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday was the the Wednesday was the exam, which I thought was quite good, but I think killed him.

23:35 How they did it, how they did the whole training was really good. Is they said, look, the, the it's got the, the long winded stuff out the way. And then obviously one on the Wednesday morning, we'll come in, you don't start your exam about 10:00. If you get here for 9:00. We'll go through it through through a few bits. Anything you're struggling with, just ask us. And then, yeah, no, it was really good set up and how they did it was really, really good. It's good because I'm not saying you did this, but if there was a question you didn't understand, like when I did it, they wouldn't tell you how to do it, but they would explain it a different way.

24:10 They were allowed to do that. They were a couple of people asked on certain questions. They were like, since when I was doing it, a couple of people on different questions had to get them to ask them can you explain it a different way? But you have none of that? Then no. To be I think they said like obviously can't answer the question but they come worded but I don't think anyone in the actual room asked any questions. OK. So I think. That's good then. Yeah, so. That is. Yeah. No, it's good. It's good to hear because it's,

24:47 it is quite daunting. It is like he's just put in the chat. He said Level 3 is a nightmare because there is, I'll put it up because there isn't no training for it really. So you'd have to book a Level 3 course. And I, I know there is people that do Level 3 courses, but Level 3 is on a different, a different level. It is see, I'm thinking about doing the, oh, the NPTA field biologist one at some point next year, but I've got to get better at me insects identification and you know, I'm doing a few little entomology diploma.

25:30 So that should help me with that. But I want to be, I want to do that, but not until I'm ready because I reckon that's, that looks like a good course. But yeah, Mark's already told me that if I could have any best control of friends that's got any food factories or audited sites, if I was going to do it, if I could tag along with them, that would be great for experience. They would be 100%, yeah, I think that would be the best. Do you have any of them sites? Any any audited sites or or food sites?

26:01 We've got quite, well, not quite a few, but we've got a, a variety of them. So we've got about four, I believe off the top of my head. Obviously I'd have to be in, I'd have to be in the office and I'd have to look. No, no, no worries. I've just in general, that was all. You know, I've got none like that. I've got any. We've got a lot, we've got like a soap manufacturer that are audited. They'd supply everybody in the soap, you know, for soap in the supermarkets and stuff. So we, you know, get a call sometimes from the auditors and stuff.

26:41 But yeah. And then we've got a few food ones. But yeah, that I think that's where it's going to now is really is everyone's, well all in the food industry. If you want the furniture you need to have the the right level of training and stuff so. You do because obviously the MPTA course on on that field biologist certified one is you've got to, I think it's Level 3 in health and safety and Level 3 in food hygiene. I think that's what it is. You've got to have them as well. You can't just and you've got to have your RSPH level 2 awarding pest management Hue as well.

27:23 He likes to make it clear on many podcasts. I've heard him say it and then you can do it. But yeah, I think, I think what you do with that is Graham Turner at Nurture. I think he does the course and then I think the exams, the MPTA do exam because Graham used to work for the MPTA. Did he's on the board of directors still though. Yes. I met him for the first time at Pestech in person. It was on Zoom calls before it was it. Was I met a lot of people at the Pestech that I've seen on LinkedIn and stuff like that.

28:01 So that was quite good actually to put a face to real life persons. So yeah. Say me briefly at the MPTA mail. So I'm straight away Farrah, and I was. Like. I didn't think so. Like days later. Did he know that was me? Because. I. Didn't say it was a blur a lot. Of it, I think. I think when we we walked in last and what had happened was like the Killjerm managing director, he did the exam with us and me and him was speaking on the lunches and the breaks and stuff. And he was like, they're, I think they're I was just getting pulled there to where like this is who I am.

28:37 I said all right, OK now and then I thought it was you, but then you were. Then we sat down to eat and then I couldn't get up. I tried to look around afterwards and then I think you'd gone. And I was like, oh, I. Was sat with I was sat with my missus Martin Beltries missus. I was. I was sat with Kevin and Mark. I was, yes. Yeah, you were. I thought that. Oh, but yeah, yeah, it was good. One of your one of your fellow schemes, isn't it? Will Will Coombs, Congratulations. I think he needs, I think he needs to get on next, I think.

29:16 I think he's ever up for it. Yeah. I don't. They Should they. Should they should always be up for it. Well, you know, it's I've got but I'm literally booked up till February now already booking people for next year. That's. What you want, That is what you want. I've got to get hold of someone wants to come on the podcast, e-mail me and they're a Python hunter, Snakes for America. I think that'll be quite a good episode. I actually get emails now and people wanted to come on the podcast. That's really.

29:55 One of them was random for I don't really think that's going to fit, but some of them fit. They do. But yeah, it's it's random. They must search, scour podcasts. I don't have to say yes to all of them, but some of them are not and that's a different take. So I might give it a go. But yeah. So with regards, So what, what would you say to someone if they were going to go forward and say that I think they've already picked the next round, but say there was another round in the future. What would you say to people to like about the about the about the scheme?

30:35 What would you recommend? Any tips or you know? Just just go for it. I wouldn't. I wouldn't even say don't go for it. I would defo 100% go for it. Like, obviously people like a bit hesitant and I completely get that. But the fact is it's kind of like, I don't even know what the term is, but like, not in an awful way. But they don't leave you alone, which is good, which is what you need. Oh, we're not nice. So so so. They want you to. They want you to pass. Yeah, they want you to do well. It's like they're they saying to you join the 525.

31:24 What I've gathered from the experience of joining the first round of, of the, the, the pick sort of thing as the scheme I got that they, they want everyone to do it and they really want to drive the younger generation. And I think if you want to drive it as well and you want to work with the MPTA and you want to, you know, like if I like, for example, and I go on a bit, but I never, never go on this. I would never call on this podcast with you if I wasn't 525I won't go on the Beauties and Beasties podcast if I was 525.

32:00 So I think it's done well for me. So I can't do well for anybody else to get out there and exposure and and plus you get a free training course and you get support that I could ring Mark probably, he'd probably be annoyed, but I'd probably ring him at 11 O clock at night. I'm at a bird job flying around everywhere. I'm at a factory. It'd be like, well, yeah, don't mind coming out. You know, they're not just, they're not just there till you pass and then they go there. They'll be there for forever and they'll always help you.

32:35 And I think that's what we need more. We need more younger generation because the generation if there's none of us left, then there's not going to be a generation of pest controllers. Oh, no, I fully agree with you because that was, that was one of the points of it because there, there is a worry that they, they say, I don't know if it's that's true. In the next 5 years, 50% of the industry retires. I think that's what they say. But you know, some people just keep going till they, they drop, they drop.

33:05 But but you know, but that that's what they're saying is there's a lot of the problem as well is the is the van insurance on under 30s that's half the problem. It's rich roundabouts, really swings and roundabouts.

33:25 It's just that it is like it's sometimes there'll be a roadblock and then you can't go forwards and backwards on either side. But I think we can't really let that stop anything. And I know. No, you can't. No, because it's the thing you're trying to get into. We've got a career sub now and yeah, MPT out of with RSPH and I think the hope is that this will philtre through to schools and try and become a career path that's. True, that's the hope because I remember when we got I went to a Catholic schools because I'm Catholic.

33:58 I got put in a Chapel and you got rid giving out what you apprentice people are going to come in. And then it was plumbing joinery. So I know joinery and carpentry the same thing, but joinery, carpentry, electrician. I think we even got a gardener that came in garden apprenticeship, landscaping, landscaping, apprenticeships. So you've got plumbing, electrician, joinery, and they were the main ones. And people were like, yeah, yeah, I want to do that. But now there should be all pest control of that.

34:34 There's so many jobs out there that should be doing apprenticeships. You are right. And not really the top tier choice. Like I remember it was just them, them they got like spoke about in school. And my like my best mate is a joiner. My other mate, it works like caddick. So he's a site manager, but a site manager it was joinery or plumbing or electrician or that was really, or garden landscape really apprenticeships that were really offered. But now, in this modern society, now, there should be more.

35:12 It should be because it's like, I don't know, just got to work out a way of getting more place. The problem is a lot of these apprenticeships are are funded by government schemes, aren't they? And they don't currently offer that. It's getting the way of making government Ryan's offer pest control, apprenticeships or any sector within pest management, basically because it's there's a variety of jobs. You don't have to be in the field. There's there's there's a lot of jobs you can you know, you can be in the offices, you can be well, you can be a Rep working for a company.

35:50 You could be a scientist. In the end, you could be all sorts. There is, but I think most of the people that have done the year round, they're all, you're all pest controllers, aren't you technicians, I think, I think you are so. But yeah, it's how do you think that they they, they could attract more younger people to the to the, to the profession? Have you got any ideas on that? Because it's not an easy one to solve. It's not, it's. Not that's a little irrelevant. It's the gross factor though. I'm not touching rats, you know, It's quite, that's where it's seen, but you know.

36:30 But I think the power of social media is quite a big one because now I see a lot of people rotting with the dogs. A lot of people now do video what they're doing with the, you know, with the client, obviously got the client's approval. We're we're trying to start though. I'm trying to start that is now I'm doing days in the life. Oh, I can't wait for that. Yeah, you know what? I'm I'm. Also trying to get my start my own podcast as well. I have been coming in the new. Year. What kind of podcast you starting?

37:04 Just trying to get different people on it. So it's like face to face interaction and obviously. Are you saying face to face or like this or it actually? No, like in person that's. Different. There you go in person what their stories get people on like people that have started their own business, but then different things obviously pest management get maybe feel biologists on chose on. I know it's it's just a goal of mine because obviously that gives the power of social media then work our way to it becoming more pest podcast.

37:47 But then obviously like get Kevin on, get Richard Mosley on as well and how they started within the industry and just kind of getting a feel of what obviously get you you on as well. You don't want me? On you. Don't want me. Yeah, we want every. I want everybody on. That's the plan. Sounds good though because she did bring me ages ago and you're asking me tips on do I get a studio and all this and that and I know I I thought you forgot about them being that. Idea completely it's just been put to the side well the the works are in motion I believe so I'm just obviously my old man does want to come back and give it a go with me if so I think that'd.

38:29 Be a bit. Easier. Yeah, he's. That was a chatterbox. He could chat to a brick wall all night long, you know, So I think they'll do amazing on the podcast. But yeah, no, it's just a work in motion trying, trying to get that going in the new year, hopefully, but no. Yeah. So what's your question is trying to get younger people is it's it's a job. Give it a go. Like at the start I thought, I can't fathom what my dad does. Like, well, you know, he's got pictures of, you know, rats and he has to take them for the reports and stuff.

39:05 I found a dead rodent in the box. And then I thought, you know what, like the end of the day, you see different things each day. Like I could like my day-to-day cockroach job, a rat job, you know, just different things. And then and also is like I was never never like I could never do this. If you asked me like 2 years ago, I was never confident to do it. But now I know more about the industry and now I'm out every day on the road meeting new people and helping people. That's a big thing as well as they've got rats in the house that we don't want them though they've called us where the professionals to get rid of them.

39:47 So let's help them, you know, put their minds at ease. And then, you know, you get, I get a kickback from helping people. And also people say, oh, you know, thank you for that. You've been really helpful. And then, you know, it's, it's one of them. I think if I'll just just go for it. I think life's too short to worry about. If you're scared of a rat or scared of a spider, you know there's a lot more. I mean to be fair, when I pick up dead rats out traps I don't actually pick them up. I use a. Grabber.

40:22 Not the grabber but sometimes I have to pull it off though because it sometimes gets stuck to do. But mainly I use the grabber, the gloves obviously and double back. I've just recently purchased one of them but before I was picking. Them up, I kept losing them. We've lost quite a few for me leaving them places, but we've still got tow in the van so. Yeah, no so. But I I get people like my friends just want a day out in the van with me, a busy day back on a Saturday if I'm ever really busy and my mates are just bored, not doing oaks, they're not working.

40:53 They're like, oh, come on, I said you have to sit in the van. You can't, you can't do it all when yeah, you know, that's fine. We'll we'll you know. And that's they find it just. Want to go and sit in the van and that's it. Yeah, just watch what I do on a day day, because sometimes then they always say you killed many rats today. I've killed it all this and I'm like, yeah, you know, I, I get enjoyment out of it now because it's not before. They'll be like, no, you're not pest, you're not pest control.

41:18 You don't kill rats, do you? But now I think they think, oh, actually that's a pretty sick job because you get rid of Rd. And employees your mates? No, I won't recommend that, no. They would know that the, the, the like, though, they're all taught like, oh, you, they've been out in the van. And then next thing I've got rid of a dead rat and put it in a contained box in the back of the van to take to, to kill GM, to be incinerated. And next thing they're like, oh, no, no, I can't believe you just got a dead rat in the van.

41:50 I said, well, it's secure. Don't worry. It's not going to go out and bite you. Yeah. But yeah, no, it's no, it's good you get enjoyment out of that because it's it does, it does show your passion. You've seen you seem very passionate about the industry, which is which is good to see. You are right, social media, I mean, TikTok has got TikTok is a good place for it. I mean, one of my videos, it was just a video telling people basically not to block the bloody hole of a boss nest. So as you can imagine, half the world tells me I'm an idiot.

42:25 I don't know what I'm talking about in the comments. And then load them start. No, no, he's right. He's right. I did that and it came through the plasterboard. I said the wording wrong. I said cut through the plasterboard. I shouldn't have said that, but I do say things like that because it can. What's it called? Word, things like that. Because it can enrage some of them to comment more. But yeah, I've got about 215,000 views, which isn't a lot compared to some people's pest control videos. I need to do more content, really.

42:57 I do the podcast mainly, but I do a lot of WASP content, usually, well, the entry holes. And when I've done it, when they're pissed off, I do that as well. But they've lost them and the full for the full suit on. No, I've never done one. Then actually showing myself I haven't. No, I think probably might do one next year, but I've never actually done more than that. I haven't anything I haven't done. But no, it sounds, it sounds good. Which way do you reckon? Obviously you probably already answered that one.

43:30 Which way do you reckon the entries going towards the next 5 to 10 years? I think it's going to grow. I believe it really is. I think at the end of the day, we all, we're all working with each other. Like you get some people that are like, oh, you don't use that company, Don't use this company. End of the day, everyone's just trying to make a living. Everyone's trying to, you know, work. People have passions about, people aren't passionate about it, but it's a job. But I think more and more people now as the industry is going on, is, is, is going to grow.

44:05 I, I believe that. And for me, I, I want it to grow. I don't think it's going to go backwards now when you've got all this technology now showing you like you watch a video. I'd like if I did a video on how to spot bedbugs in in in your mattress. People, you know, people read on it, but the Internet never really gives you the the satisfaction when really you could just go on take took our Instagram, see a video or these are professionals, they're doing this. Oh well, I'll give these guys a call because they know what they're on about.

44:37 And I've seen this, I've seen that, and I'm not wasting my time of getting a call out of someone to go and come over, but I think it is going to grow. And I, I hope my, I hope my word is true to that because I think it goes down. I think you're right, because that's kind of what Mark Porter did. I don't know. You've heard of Mark Porter? Porter's Pest Control. Yeah, he's. He's been, he's been on the podcast. I don't expect. You to I don't expect you to have watched all 40 of them. I know. And he done it one day where he had this massive bed book job and he put it on Facebook and his phone was, I think it was next day or whatever, his phone was going mental, people ringing him.

45:20 And overnight 100, he had this group and hundreds of thousands of people were watching this, this, this bed bug job. And he got, he got a lot of work out of it. He did he's, you have to look up his content. You will. He's quite good at it. But he's london-based. But yeah, he, he, he shows off a lot of bent bug jobs on, on his content. And it, it can get your work. It can because I, I, I might be wrong. You tell me if not, because I'm really old saying this. I, I do use TikTok, but I've been told that the younger generation go to TikTok like a search engine or if they want to, they want us, they want a tradesman in their area, they'll go and look if they're on TikTok.

46:09 Is that right? I think people just scroll on TikTok, yeah, when they I think you just got like, I think that is true. Like some people will search on TikTok. Like don't get me wrong, I have TikTok. I'll have a little scroll and see. Things. I'll be careful, Mark. Wait. Three hours later, you've got. Yeah, that's it. I just do it when I'm about to go to bed, to be fair, to see what I've missed. And I scroll, scroll, scroll. Even my dad does it, to be honest. He just is, it is Facebook reels for him.

46:41 He just he can't, he can't come off it. But yeah, no, it's you are my you. You are right with that. People will use TikTok as a as a safari. So now, but I think it's just TikTok is good because you can do short videos, long videos, you can go even go live now. It's like a little Instagram sort of thing. You can't. But you can't go live on Instagram now. Instagram has changed there as you have to have 1000 followers to go live. Really. Yeah, TikTok, you can go live whenever you want, but on Instagram, you now have to have 1000 followers.

47:13 All right, they changed it. I've never. Been live I thought. I thought it was TikTok that you have to have 1000 followers. No TikTok about anybody. Oh no, no, it's Instagram. I'm into all this. Have you ever heard of Gary Vee? Gary Vaynerchuk. Gary Vee, is that the concrete guy? No, no, he just he's he's he's very good at branding and content create. He like he owns big a big a big media company who like there's some of his customers are like Nike and Coca-Cola and that and he's very good at teaching people how to do social media.

47:55 But he said I can give you the tools, but I can't make you be good if you crap you crap. He's very blunt. He is, but I learned things like that's what he said. He says kids now go on TikTok, younger people and have a look in our local area. I mean, obviously it might be American thing, he lives in America, but a lot of them go to TikTok to find out what this company's like or what the people look like they work for them or things like that. And he said it can get you work. That's where a lot of research will get a lot of this stuff from.

48:27 It is, but it's looking at things like that. It is, no, Yeah, but no, I I think you're right. I think the industry will grow, but there's a lot of acquisitions happening, people buying companies up, aren't there? Yeah, it's happening a lot. Yes, it you're out. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, I'm not going to get, I'm not going to get into that. But I'm not the biggest fan of it. I'm not. But I like small family businesses. Yeah, I. Do but then again, nowadays small could be deemed you've got 50 technicians.

49:01 Have you seen what they deemed big small, You know like the best awards and stuff. You've got like little companies that are far, like they're a large company compared to ours, but a lot. Of the Did you go to the best awards? No, no. But some of the small, some of the. Oh, no. This year's small company was actually small company. It was Jacob. Jacob from Atlas. Yeah. MPTA accredited member. Yeah, I was so happy. I was so I was so happy when I found out he won. Doesn't doesn't other one in London that won actually as well?

49:36 They got business of a year or something like that. Yeah, I've never been to the pest Awards. I know you went as part of the the skate, the five for 25, didn't you? Yeah, it was actually really good. You like it? Yeah, it was. It was good to meet different people. That was the first interaction that we had through 5 under 25 and it was good to speak to people, but then I forgot. We also got taken to Paris not so long ago. Yeah, I was about, I was about to bring that up. You got a nice all expenses paid trip to to to Paris because I've never been to a Paris pest control event.

50:17 Yeah, Paris tech, Paris tech, Paris tech. That sounds right. It's something like that. That sounds right. That was really good, but a lot of it was stuff you can't use in in England, so. Jasmine was Jasmine was there from Optic Cat. She's on the board of directors for the MPTA. She had a stall. I don't know if you've seen seen her there. I don't know if you've met her. You met her. No, I haven't. I haven't. No, but no. But Paris Tech was really good. We got taken for a meal with this Syngenta team and they've obviously funded half with the MPTA for our training 525.

50:55 That was on the Tuesday. The Wednesday was Paris Tech might be butchering Paris Tech, Paris Tech wherever. Yeah, it sounds right, Yeah. So I think it's the ladies accent. But then you we had a small get together with the team again and it was different, yeah, different countries that works in general. So there was from Prague to Jordan to Sweden and to Switzerland. And then the front team was there and they were just, they were intrigued to find out how, like said on this podcast, how we got into it, what made the Syngenta pick A5?

51:40 And they were really, really intrigued to find out because obviously in different countries, I was, I said to someone from Jordan, I said, what's the age range from for you guys, if we work for your company? And they said, oh, probably about 28 plus there's no young people there. Oh, OK. So they might they. There might be. Hang on, 28 young, I think. But compared to 500, compared to 575. I know. I know, but I thought that was it was really, really mental to to find out that that they're trying to push it for different countries now as well, which I think is good.

52:20 No, it is good. It started here and if I don't know that St Jens have been really positive about game and they really, they really enjoyed doing this game. But they they are a massive company though. They're massive. They're like, yeah, because I obviously I did a Syngenta digital trial of the digital secure choice boxes and with Gary, Gary from Syngenta. So I have worked with them. But yeah, they're a big company. They are, but they're. Yeah, but I it's a good trial. But I did, I did an article in the in the MPJ newsletter about it, but I haven't rolled it out to any sites.

53:07 You've got to have the right site and the right client who's willing to pay the right prices. But I think on a lot food audited site it might be OK. Yeah, but it's good to hear you had fun in Paris. It is. It was really good and thanks to MPTA and Syngenta for the opportunity. That's nice. I see Mark was there. Yeah. Said to him, Pastor, I can see you win Paris. Yeah. Had to go and help. He says they're hard to keep up with them. 520 fives are. That's what he said. Hard to keep up with.

53:47 That's what he said. But he said he said He said it was a good trip. He did. Yeah, no, really, really good trip. Is there any? Is there any more threats planned? Not that I know of, no. I think Pastek was the last one. Yeah, I believe so. Oh. To be fair, I mean, you never would have got to go to Paris. That Paris event, if it won the back, you never would have dreamed that you would be going to an event in Paris, would you? No, that's another benefits of benefit. Benefit. Yeah, benefits choosing or trying to apply for that 525 is, you know, I got taken to Paris with it and I met a whole group of new contacts, which I thought was amazing.

54:38 You get taken, obviously as the Pest Awards. We were invited, also invited to the Pesteca Awards. Pestech, sorry, not a word, which I thought was amazing. She could go around different stalls and interact with new people. And it was some people were there from the Paris trip as well. So it was just catching up with them. But yeah, no, it's a real, real benefit, I think. And I think it's amazing what MPTA and Syngenta are doing for the fact that trying to get more young people to to to apply it and groan with it and get the younger generation so.

55:23 It's a real good idea. Like my son, he's 10. He he wants to be a pest controller when he's older. So there he does because like last year we had the recipes your hero day. He dressed up as me. So I got a small pest control. We bought the kids some smaller ones and he went, he went to school like that. I was like, I was like, wow, didn't think I'd ever be his hero. And I was like, yeah, it was great. It was. But that's that's, that's nice. That's. Yeah, he he wants to be pest control. He's older.

55:58 So the idea is that when I take over, eventually the plan is it becomes multi generational. Eventually I do. In house and I think and he's only 10, but when he gets to it would be hopefully he'll know everything. Hopefully, yeah, if he still wants to be it, but you know, I'm not going to force it. But he does. He does want to be that. Yeah, he does. But but yeah, if you could wave your magic wand and change anything in pest control, what would it be? Oh, that's a very, very good question. Do you mean like?

56:47 Anything. Does that have to be big Viscam D back? Took the words out of my mouth. Could be anything. It's just a random question before I ask you. It was. Yeah, that's. A good one is that ficam DI loved loved ficam D. Everyone loved Ficam D, it was rest in peace. And now took it off. Yeah, that was the the most annoyingest thing. Anyone. It was like, that's, that's like, that's like a heartbreak that's like. That was Vicom W years ago. That was great, I'm told. Vicom D was, yeah, it was the one I think was anything, anything in pest control.

57:34 I could wave a wand and there is something that I could probably think of, but.

57:45 You don't want to get be controversial. You don't have to be. Yeah, I don't know what you're doing. I think it would be.

57:55 I was just going to say the big companies giving the smaller companies a bad Rep I think, but that might get me in trouble. It won't, but it won't get you, you know, it's just. I think something people, I think especially one company won't won't whenever I say they'll raise just I think I think the companies that are through the you know, American based are big companies that are massive, which fair play, you know, they've got to where they are because, you know, it's it's in deniable. They've just grown.

58:34 But I think it gives the back the pest controllers that are just starting and obviously trying to get their foot in the door a bad Rep, because obviously you get sometimes get a bad reputation on with that company. They haven't done well, But then sometimes it can be benefits. It can be like I've took few contracts off a certain company that weren't a plant, weren't doing what they were supposed to, but because they're that big, they don't really care. And I think with the in house and obviously the the family run businesses, even if you've got staff that aren't family, you know, and they're just you've got workers, I think you do drive the message and is you look after everybody because their contracts at the end of the day.

59:18 I know it's true. I mean, you can turn that into a positive because like we've also done that as well and what they've kept us ever since we've kept them up, kept them happy and delivering what they want. And you can turn it into a positive where that had that bad experience has happened. But quite often a lot of these, I'm not going to blame these companies, but a lot of times technicians get overloaded too much will work and then they can't spend long on site and that's just how it is. It's just the way it is.

59:52 But then it, it, it with small companies, it, it plays the advantage if they happen to come to you or you get that contract or that job, then they can see the value that you and your company, all the small business can provide. And Mark, because I was shocked at Mark's got a couple of posh hotels in London and I went normally you haven't got them. And she says yes, He says, he says the tide's changing. He says a lot of the big, big chains and. I start a lot of them are starting to look for smaller companies that can provide the server a better level of service.

1:00:30 And he's got 2 very, I think he publicised it. He got 2 very, very top end posh hotels in London and he's got, he's got 11 or 10 techs now he has and he's still deemed small. But he said the tide's changing. He reckons that they're starting to see the value in smaller businesses. I think it is. It's good and bad. Obviously sometimes you might get or are you going to do what that company did well now and then obviously the stick by you and the sea, but it can be good. Like I said, it is you get the opportunity.

1:01:03 But I think a lot of big companies going back to my point, sometimes people think I've used that company now like, you know, just pest controllers, they're all the same sort of thing stereotype, I think. But yeah, that's my my opinion on it. Well. That's fair. I mean, you didn't you didn't say anything that a lot of people out there on this, especially this podcast wouldn't think, but entitled to your opinion. You are everyone is. You know, I've got to be careful what I say online sometimes because I have got a bill of a gob when it comes to things.

1:01:43 But I haven't said no recently. That's, that's got me any, any, any trouble. But in general like, to be fair though, that's, that's actually how I got the Syngenta trial because I, I was, I was online on LinkedIn saying, yeah, the digital boxes, they ain't for small businesses. They don't work. Next thing you know, MPTA is ringing me up. Would you like to do a trial? We've seen your post moaning about it's not for small business. Do you want to give it a go? I was like, well, fair enough. My math got me something there and that was pre me.

1:02:20 I know when I started a trial, I was on the board of directors, but I was offered it free before I even applied it. It took a while to actually go go through and stuff. But but yeah, it's yeah, your math can get your rewards sometimes, you know, an opportunity. Can I can also put you in the? Yeah, it can. I'm, I'm, I'm more, I try and be more political these days. I've learned a lot since I've been on the board. But you know the MPT, I've learned a lot from the people there. It's been really good there.

1:02:52 It's a really good team there is there as but you've obviously met most of them. I haven't actually spoken to Richard from Saint Jensen before. I've spoke to him in the board meeting, but not on a one to one. I've not actually got to got to meet him properly. I haven't. So yeah, he's really, really, really like just sound just really, really. Yeah. Like he just on the parish trip, I was speaking to him and he's really just like a lovely guy. So yeah, that's. Good to hear that is, but yeah. So where where were your, where do you want to see yourself in five years?

1:03:34 Your company, you know, or it's a little bit bigger than you are now or. Not a massive well, yeah, a bit of a massive change really. Have 5 to 6 people on the road. Oh nice. But the same training, they'll, they'll always get the same training of what you know, the same route. So they're not been, you know, fast tracked in any way or anything like that. Law was even if it takes a bit longer, 5 people on the road, 5 technicians, me in the office and two more people in the office and grow it to something that maybe it can become a bit of a franchise to as well.

1:04:23 It's worth when you're doing it. I've been told by a few people, because I speak to quite a few people and obviously you, you probably do now, and they always say slow but steady. Don't rush in there because you'll go flat on your face. That's what they say. They say some people do it too quickly and get into trouble. But if you do it steady, that's steady, that is. I think by the end of this, yeah, I want, I'd say two definite people. And I think that's a realistic goal. Oh. You've got to get out and get the work, ain't you?

1:05:00 You've got to try and get the work. I'm. Sure you could. I'm. Sure, you could do it, Farrah. Nothing will stop me to that to get that. So yeah, I'm I'm driven by if I set a goal, I did say to my dad's by I said by sixties 58. So by 60 he won't even he'll, he'll see such a dramatic change that he won't know if that makes sense. He won't even think he if that makes sense. He didn't. He didn't. No, he doesn't. He's like he'll look back on it and think, well, how how much has changed? So that's the promise.

1:05:34 And I've got to, I always keep promises. I always keep to my word so. I'm sure you can do it, bar I've got I've got faith in you. That's that's the aim. So yeah.

1:05:45 Yeah, no, yeah, Thanks for coming on. It's been, it's been fun, just just over an hour. But yeah, it's, it's good to have a chat with you. But it's hopefully some point we actually get to chat and not just a handshake. Yeah. I don't know, end of people handshaking. There wasn't time to, you know, we would at some point. Yeah, I'm sure, 100% sure, 100%. I'm sure we will. Have you got any? I know, I know what the answer is to this form. Have you got anyone you want to see on this podcast? The 525 and that's that's going to be an audit.

1:06:16 It's got to be forced because I think they just need if I say they've got to obviously come on, but I think they need to show what they've done from obviously you know what they've what they benefit from the 525, because obviously the more the more of us that do it, the more people are actually being in in intrigued to know about. So but someone else? Have you had Mark on before? Mark is actually booked in for December. There we. Go, let's have a look. Hang on. I think actually I'll change that.

1:06:57 I get get Will Coons and I think I think he's watching. If he is watching, he's put in these. He's on a night. He's on the 9th of December. Mark is, but if he wants to, come on, come on. He's more than welcome. But it'd be next year. If he's watching, there's plenty of time, plenty of time to rehearse and get ready for it. But yeah, just on that. He, like I said, he does a bit of things differently to me. He, he's got a ferret, actually, you know. Always into that is a nice. So he I think this week on Friday going to go over to Cheshire and he's got but plot of land that he he looks after and I'm just going to pick up some just going to go with him and see what that's about.

1:07:44 So that's interesting. But he said to me if, if there's any a time where you're back-to-back with bed bug jobs, can I come over and see how you do it? And that's another thing with the five. He's a he's a mate now. So you know, you learn off each other, so. You made friends, didn't you? So it's good. It's good to have people because if there's a thing that is a certain job I can't do, I'll give it to him. Or if it's a certain job he can't do, he's already said that give it to me. So it's just building relationships and connections, so it's good.

1:08:16 It is because I think the old, a lot of the old mentalities are starting to disappear because a lot of people didn't used to talk to the pest control. Oh, he's in my area. I can't talk to him 100%. I get on with the people in my area. I get on with most of them. To be fair, not all of them, but most of them because. I do talk to everyone a bit like us, we speak to everyone. But you know, if you don't want to speak to me, that's absolutely fine. I'll crack on with. Them everyone knows who I am. They can't not know, you know, I've been in magazines.

1:08:52 I bet they've all seen me so you know so but yeah, I will message Will and see if he ever wants to come on and any any of the five, the 25 scheme that have just finished it. If you want to come on, there's no pressure. Drop me Adm on LinkedIn or where I will tell Farrah and I'll I'll message you and then we'll sort something out. But maybe next year it will be now. But but yeah, definitely. So thanks Farrah for coming on and giving up part of your evening. Thank you. Thanks for having me. No, he's good.

1:09:30 Been good. Now I finally got you on. I've been trying to get I'm trying to get oldest man for a few days. He's. Busy. I've just been so busy. It's unbelievable. I think. I think you thought I was ghosting you for a minute, didn't you? Because. I rang Mark. I actually rang Mark and says you know, you go on with Farrah, don't you? And I told you when he rang me back, I didn't remember all that. It's all sorted. Farrah's got hold of me. He was just he was snowed under a work and I was like, what's going on?

1:09:56 I was like, I never experienced. You're just so busy, which I understand the past. Couple of weeks. It's just I think because now the season is more like the seat. We're coming into the the winter season now. Of course, you've had Paris and Pestech trips too, which which takes you away from work. Yeah, so it's just patching up. So I've just been proper snowed under. But now I'm glad I've I've jumped on and obviously had the chat. So it's been, it's been good. Yeah, yeah. Cheers. But you've done 2 podcasts in one year.

1:10:26 He's in Basties and. I said after I did say after the last one I give it a rest for the year, but I thought I can't, can't miss this one, so yeah. But yeah, no, thanks for coming on and yeah, thanks everyone for watching. I'm back on tomorrow.

1:10:43 We'll be back on tomorrow. It's scheduled, I suppose, to have the girls from Pest Pestigen podcast on in America, but it's up. I'll let you know if it's still happening because I've got another message about that. But if not, I'll be back next week. I can't remember who I've got, but I've got somebody I have so right. Thanks everyone. I'll just end the stream now and thanks everyone.